Motul 300V compared to Redline???

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Originally Posted By: 92GTA
Really? They say its JASO MA (MA1 specifically) approved for wet clutch and contains 0.05%.

As per the spec table I posted earlier, MA1 means it offers less friction than MA2, probably because of all that moly, as LoneRanger noted above. My guess is that MA1 assures enough friction for most wet clutches, but some clutches would be better served by MA2 levels of friction.

I have no personal experience with Ducati, so I don't know how picky their clutches are when it comes to the required friction levels. Does your owner's manual call for MA2? If so, I'd probably stick to that.
 
Originally Posted By: 92GTA
I bought another new Ducati superbike but the dealer I used this time seems to really be behind Motul 300V. In my last Ducati and all of my vehicles for that matter, I run Redline.

I really know nothing about the Motul 300V. Is it a group IV or a group V? If it's a group V, how does it really compare to Redline under heavy use?

I'm trying to decide if I should just keep using it, or switch the bike over to Redline. I have my reasons for wanting to use Redline.

Thanks! Alex


For one, congrats on your new Duc! The Redline and Motul 300V are similar oils, but there are definitely some differences in formulation between them. Redline states that they meet/exceeed JASO MA requirements, while Motul states, "Above existing standards, wet clutch compatibility checked on JASO T903 test". Motul always lists their JASO standards and their resulting JASO certified oil code if it meets any JASO standard, but if you look on their bottle it's lacking either of the certs. None the less, they both claim they meet JASO standards, but both do not provide the oil code showing certification from JASO (but again, that doesn't mean they don't meet the certification either).

Next, they both state they utilize Base V stock, Redline stating Polyol Ester and Motul also using an Ester base stock.

Comparing stats between them are as follows (in a 10W40 viscosity for comparison): Redline-Motul

Viscosity Index: 163-160
Pour Point: -49F- -32.8F
Flash Point: 480F-482F

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=109&pcid=13

https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/68393/original/300V_Factory_Line_10W-40_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388426762

I couldn't find these other stats via Motul, but the biggest difference between them is probably their additive pack. Redline uses a very high 2500 PPM of Zinc and 2100 of Phosphorus, while also using upwards of 500 PPM of molybdenum (0.05%). While I don't know definitively, I don't think Motul is using as high of concentrations in their 300V (keep in mind JASO certification requires a level between 800-1200 PPM of Phosphorus). Based off the stats I would lean more heavily toward Redline's oil, unless Motul provides you with more technical information showing the contrary. Btw, is your Ducati a wet or dry clutch?

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV0412.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: Analyzer

Btw, is your Ducati a wet or dry clutch?


Wet, thank you for the info! I'm still trying to figure out how much moly the Motul has, and I think I'm going to decide based on that.
 
No problem at all
wink.gif


I can just about guarantee Motul will have less Moly than Redline, and even though the 500 PPM is quite high, they both state they meet JASO requirements for the dynamic, static, and stop time index wet clutch requirements; meaning both in theory are safe for wet clutch use. Let us know if Motul provides you with any further technical specs, I (and I'm sure others) would definitely be interested in finding out!
 
GTA, I realize that you'll probably be ditching the stock exhaust for a catless after market performance setup but in case catalytic converter health is a concern, the Redline oil will eventually poison the cat with the levels of Zinc and Phos noted in Analyzer's post. That is quite a lot of zinc and phos for a bike fitted with a catalytic converter, and there will be some oil comsumption as the engine wears in so it would be throwing some of the 2500ppm and 2100ppm of each at the cat for awhile.

P.S. The JASO Oil Code Number for Motul 300V Factory Line 15W50 is MO33MOT92, it was submitted to JASO by Motul and certificated for MA not MA2. This is from the JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel Filed Motorcycle Four Cycle Gasoline Engine Oil List with a revision date of March 1, 2014.

Link: http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
GTA, I realize that you'll probably be ditching the stock exhaust for a catless after market performance setup but in case catalytic converter health is a concern, the Redline oil will eventually poison the cat with the levels of Zinc and Phos noted in Analyzer's post. That is quite a lot of zinc and phos for a bike fitted with a catalytic converter, and there will be some oil comsumption as the engine wears in so it would be throwing some of the 2500ppm and 2100ppm of each at the cat for awhile.

P.S. The JASO Oil Code Number for Motul 300V Factory Line 15W50 is MO33MOT92, it was submitted to JASO by Motul and certificated for MA not MA2. This is from the JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel Filed Motorcycle Four Cycle Gasoline Engine Oil List with a revision date of March 1, 2014.

Link: http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf




Hmmm, interesting. So Redline is MA1 and Motul is MA, so the Redline will be better on the wet clutch. However I do in fact care about the cats. The bloody exhaust is already plenty loud so I will be keeping the exhaust stock for the foreseeable future.

Decisions decisions
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
GTA, I realize that you'll probably be ditching the stock exhaust for a catless after market performance setup but in case catalytic converter health is a concern, the Redline oil will eventually poison the cat with the levels of Zinc and Phos noted in Analyzer's post. That is quite a lot of zinc and phos for a bike fitted with a catalytic converter, and there will be some oil comsumption as the engine wears in so it would be throwing some of the 2500ppm and 2100ppm of each at the cat for awhile.

P.S. The JASO Oil Code Number for Motul 300V Factory Line 15W50 is MO33MOT92, it was submitted to JASO by Motul and certificated for MA not MA2. This is from the JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel Filed Motorcycle Four Cycle Gasoline Engine Oil List with a revision date of March 1, 2014.

Link: http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf




I also checked out the JASO certified oil list and it makes me wonder why Motul has conflicting info on their website. For instance, the code you provided (MO33MOT92) is for Motul 300V 4T FL (FL= Factory Line) in a 15W50, but if you scroll down to item 454 you'll find Motul 300V FL Road Racing M033MOT124 in the same viscosity. Motul's own website describe their product as either 300V Factory Line Road Racing, along with 300V Factory Line Off Road (which is below at item 466 & 467).

None the less, it's odd we're seeing JASO MA designations for the 300V via JASO'S list, but I've had the bottle in my hand and it doesn't have either the JASO certification on the bottle or the resulting oil code. Then to top it off on all of their 4 stroke oils on their website and their technical data sheets they always list their JASO designation and oil code along with the API standards it meets; the only oil that does not is the 300V and simply states, " Above existing standards, wet clutch compatibility checked on JASO T903 test".

https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/oils-lubricants/300v-factory-line-road-racing-15w50?f%5Bengine_type%5D=26&f%5Brange%5D=21

https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/68395/original/300V_Factory_Line_15W-50_TDS_(GB).pdf?1383162290

JASO also states, "At the time of reporting, the submitter shall submit to the Panel a representative example of performance classification marking on the four-cycle oil container and a copy of the label" indicating before the company is given JASO approval they want an example of the performance classification marking on the actual container. I guess it's nit-picking when you get down to it, but odd indeed.

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1105.pdf
(page 9)
 
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As long as you not burning oil , oil wont matter much to your cat. Heck I have 105,000 mile on a catted vfr with a leaded race fuel mix. The cat and pipes are kept gorgeously decarboned. point is , if your burning oil, carbon buildup will kill a cat, and plug it up. Or running to rich , like with power commanders.

[/quote]

Hmmm, interesting. So Redline is MA1 and Motul is MA, so the Redline will be better on the wet clutch. However I do in fact care about the cats. The bloody exhaust is already plenty loud so I will be keeping the exhaust stock for the foreseeable future.

Decisions decisions [/quote]
 
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Have you looked at other brands of oil?
Mobil 1?

Amsoil MCV Motorcycle oil is supposed to be MA/MA2 rated(as well as other classifications).
It's ZDDP levels shouldn't cause too much problem with cats.
Zinc is 1511 PPM, Phosphorous is 1316 PPM and Molybdenum is 46 PPM
Realistically, these DUCATI's don't use much ZDDP in service anyway. So how much do you think you need?
It's priced at $11.90/qt retail.

But realistically though, the only oils that have limits imposed on the Zinc and Phosphorous content to protect the cats, are the 30 weight(or thinner) car oils.
It doesn't apply to 40 weight or 50 weight car oils, and there aren't any limits on motorcycle oils at all. Regardless of the grade.

The industry and Government regulators don't care about cat preservation on motorcycles.
So any of the good motorcycle oils worth considering for your bike, will be over the ZDDP limits imposed on the thin car oils anyway. So it's not an issue.
I should imagine that your engine/transmission assembly, might not last very long without adequate Boundary Level lubrication provided by ZDDP in the amounts that are prescribed for the later/thinner car oils.
All the good motorcycle oils are SG/SH.
By worrying about ZDDP levels in motorcycle oils being too high, you're just chasing ghosts.

With regard to Molybdenum levels and wet clutch compatibility and JASO MA 2 approvals.
It's always been a rare occurrence for there to have been any issues from oils that are MA, let alone with oils that are MA 1.
I seriously doubt that you will have any troubles with an MA oil any way.
 
Good point.


Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
As long as you not burning oil , oil wont matter much to your cat. Heck I have 105,000 mile on a catted vfr with a leaded race fuel mix. The cat and pipes are kept gorgeously decarboned. point is , if your burning oil, carbon buildup will kill a cat, and plug it up. Or running to rich , like with power commanders.



Hmmm, interesting. So Redline is MA1 and Motul is MA, so the Redline will be better on the wet clutch. However I do in fact care about the cats. The bloody exhaust is already plenty loud so I will be keeping the exhaust stock for the foreseeable future.

Decisions decisions [/quote] [/quote]
 
Ive only seen a uoa' on motul car oil v300 which has a lot of moly, I bet the Motorcyle ma type is like redlines, very little moly. But unitl a uoa is produced hard to say.


Redline also has an MB type mc oil, you don't really want that in your wet clutch.

But Ive ran both motul MC v300 ma and redlines ma, have not had any clutch issues with those. But I have seen wet clutch issues with redlines car oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Ducman

But realistically though, the only oils that have limits imposed on the Zinc and Phosphorous content to protect the cats, are the 30 weight(or thinner) car oils.
It doesn't apply to 40 weight or 50 weight car oils, and there aren't any limits on motorcycle oils at all. Regardless of the grade.


While it is true that to meet the API SN cert. for oil viscosity's between 0W20-10W30 formulators are restricted to a Phosphorus content between 0.06-0.08% (600-800 PPM); if an oil is JASO certified it does have limitations on its Phosphorus content which is between 0.08-0.12% (800-1200 PPM). That's one of the reasons Redline states it meets JASO MA requirements but isn't actually certified by JASO because of their Phosphorus content of 2100 PPM.

http://www.aftonchemical.com/Lists/Brochure/Attachments/40/Specification_Handbook.pdf
(pages 33 & 125)

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1105.pdf
(page 8)

Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
The motorcycle MA type redline has a very low insignificant amount of moly, the car oil is a different story, it has alot.


Surprisingly from Redline's own website their Typical Properties of their MC oil state 500 PPM of Moly.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=109&pcid=13
 
Ive seen that .05, but when I heat tested the mc oil, I didn't see the moly fall out of suspension like I did with the car oil. and the car oil was somewhere in the 550 ppm to 700 ppm, with uoa's Ive seen. But the composition is definitely different between the two.




Originally Posted By: Analyzer
Originally Posted By: Ducman


http://www.aftonchemical.com/Lists/Brochure/Attachments/40/Specification_Handbook.pdf
(pages 33 & 125)

Mackelroy said:
The motorcycle MA type redline has a very low insignificant amount of moly, the car oil is a different story, it has alot.


Surprisingly from Redline's own website their Typical Properties of their MC oil state 500 PPM of Moly.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=109&pcid=13
Click to expand...
 
I believe that these oils are both very comparable. What sets them apart for me is the difference in companies, and how they are run. When given the choice, I will always support a smaller company, instead of a large business.

Plus Red Line customer service is excellent, they've answered every question I have had, unlike Motul who never responded to any of my emails.
 
As mentioned, Motul just ignored my email. Redline responded within 30mins as they have in the past.

I've decided to go with the Redline 20W50 motorcycle oil.

Thanks everyone!

Alex
 
Originally Posted By: quarterliter
Why 20w50? Their 10w40 is plenty viscous.


Only because the manual OKs 20W50 for the hot climate I live in, around 110F during the summer. I used 10W40 in my last superbike and it was fine. I guess I'm still not 100% sure on the weight, I know Redline tends to run thicker than other oils of the same rating. The manual specifies 10W40 too. I ride this one harder than my last and I know the heavier weight will help the gear box.
 
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40 weight oil is a fairly wide spread of viscosity. The RedLine motorcycle stuff visc. 14@100C is fairly heavy 40 weight. I would have chosen that over the 20w50. Plus 20w at startup is to thick IMO. Thicker oil just attributes to even higher oil temp.
 
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