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#3302685 - 03/05/14 08:15 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: Pop_Rivit]
ram_man Offline


Registered: 03/15/13
Posts: 1474
Loc: southern mo
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
I thought you were going to mechanic's school. Wouldn't a mechanic in training know both the answer and realize that what he was doing likely caused the issue?


I am in school thats why I know that starting a vehicle for 15 minutes or so to warm up shouldn't magically cause any issues. I told the tech the whole scenario he didnt seem to think that starting the vehicle on a regular basis would screw it up.
If that would cause it there would be alot of people who drive 5 miles or less to work having random hard start issues.
has everyone realized yet thats not the case?
I could walk out every day for a month and start my saturn for 1 minute then shut it off and I would bet it would never have a magical hard to start blowing black smoke issue. Yes I realize doing so wouldnt be intelligent but you could do it. Starting a car up twice in one week to warm up and clean the ice and snow off wouldn't cause the issues.

actually my schooling is a great example of this we have junk donated cars that we drive 50 feet from the cage into the school they are used for this constantly and they always run. Sometimes if they sat for a few months the battery would be dead but if we had to move it for the whole week that would be 50 feet every day for 5 days they always ran while doing so. 50 feet takes what lets say 2 minutes tops.
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#3302699 - 03/05/14 08:23 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
RSmolik Offline


Registered: 08/12/11
Posts: 6
Loc: IL
have you tried cleaning the throttle body? It gets gunked up with carbon from oil vapors after engine shut off, so the built in idle control (no valve on cable-less throttle bodys) cant compensate past the ring of gunk on the throttle bore.

Im just sayin its worth looking into.


Edited by RSmolik (03/05/14 08:24 PM)
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#3302705 - 03/05/14 08:28 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
ram_man Offline


Registered: 03/15/13
Posts: 1474
Loc: southern mo
I didn't check it. Although it could be I figured since its under warranty ill let them I was just wanting to ask because if they cant find the issues I can ask if they checked such things
_________________________
02 Saturn sl 131,000 miles
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#3302713 - 03/05/14 08:39 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25659
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Its been very cold I started it monday and then again today each time let it run a few minutes enought to warm up completely. She asked me to so I do. I dont drive my dodge but I let it run atleast once a week for a little bit. It's never had a problem with it.


Why? What kind of benefit do you hope to extract from not getting the oil up to temperature?

A vehicle, if parked with no intention of being driven, should be left alone until it is possible to drive it. You are dumping fuel into the oil, carboning up the piston tops, washing down the cylinder walls....etc. There's no logical reason to be doing this.
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#3302720 - 03/05/14 08:47 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25659
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: ram_man

I am in school thats why I know that starting a vehicle for 15 minutes or so to warm up shouldn't magically cause any issues.


Shouldn't? No. But it isn't good for it either.

Quote:
I told the tech the whole scenario he didnt seem to think that starting the vehicle on a regular basis would screw it up.
But he didn't say it was good for it either did he? smirk

Quote:
If that would cause it there would be alot of people who drive 5 miles or less to work having random hard start issues.


Except their engines are under load so they at least have some hope of putting some heat into the oil.

Quote:
has everyone realized yet thats not the case?
I could walk out every day for a month and start my saturn for 1 minute then shut it off and I would bet it would never have a magical hard to start blowing black smoke issue. Yes I realize doing so wouldnt be intelligent but you could do it. Starting a car up twice in one week to warm up and clean the ice and snow off wouldn't cause the issues.


I recommend trying it on the Saturn and see how many times of doing that it takes until you end up flooding it.

Tip: WOT clears a flood condition on a Ford. Pumping the pedal as indicated in your OP was not a good idea, you continued to flood the engine but eventually got enough air in there that it fired. I'm amazed they didn't teach you that.......

Quote:

actually my schooling is a great example of this we have junk donated cars that we drive 50 feet from the cage into the school they are used for this constantly and they always run. Sometimes if they sat for a few months the battery would be dead but if we had to move it for the whole week that would be 50 feet every day for 5 days they always ran while doing so. 50 feet takes what lets say 2 minutes tops.


If there's enough time for the fuel to flash dry out, sure, it won't cause an issue. The problem is that if you shut off an engine still on cold start enrichment and the cylinders stay damp because it is cold and you do this a few times, and say it has some carbon build up in the cylinders that absorbs some of that fuel.... Eventually you end up with a lot of fuel in those cylinders and the next time it does the cold start sequence to start, it floods.

I've had multiple vehicles that didn't respond well to only letting it warm up for a few minutes, shutting it off, and then restarting it not all that long later. Two enrichment cycles in series, even though the engine ran for a few minutes, meant a partial flood condition and a vehicle that ran like a raging turd. Never happened in the summer, but in the colder months, yup.
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#3302721 - 03/05/14 08:48 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25659
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I didn't check it. Although it could be I figured since its under warranty ill let them I was just wanting to ask because if they cant find the issues I can ask if they checked such things


There is probably absolutely nothing wrong with the car.
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#3302722 - 03/05/14 08:48 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: OVERKILL]
ram_man Offline


Registered: 03/15/13
Posts: 1474
Loc: southern mo
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Its been very cold I started it monday and then again today each time let it run a few minutes enought to warm up completely. She asked me to so I do. I dont drive my dodge but I let it run atleast once a week for a little bit. It's never had a problem with it.


Why? What kind of benefit do you hope to extract from not getting the oil up to temperature?

A vehicle, if parked with no intention of being driven, should be left alone until it is possible to drive it. You are dumping fuel into the oil, carboning up the piston tops, washing down the cylinder walls....etc. There's no logical reason to be doing this.



it did get up to temp. It ran long enough to melt all the ice off of it. There was a good amount. It warmed up more than enough for none of that to be a concern


Edited by ram_man (03/05/14 08:49 PM)
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#3302724 - 03/05/14 08:51 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25659
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Its been very cold I started it monday and then again today each time let it run a few minutes enought to warm up completely. She asked me to so I do. I dont drive my dodge but I let it run atleast once a week for a little bit. It's never had a problem with it.


Why? What kind of benefit do you hope to extract from not getting the oil up to temperature?

A vehicle, if parked with no intention of being driven, should be left alone until it is possible to drive it. You are dumping fuel into the oil, carboning up the piston tops, washing down the cylinder walls....etc. There's no logical reason to be doing this.



it did get up to temp. It ran long enough to melt all the ice off of it. There was a good amount. It warmed up more than enough for none of that to be a concern


Did I say coolant? I said OIL UP TO TEMPERATURE. Unless the car has an oil/coolant heat exchanger there isn't a snowball's chance in [censored] that you got the oil up to temperature.

You've put fuel in the oil and pointlessly wasted gasoline for no reason whatsoever. I mean you don't own a scan tool so I know for a fact you didn't verify coolant temperature. You are qualifying the car being warmed up by its ability to melt ice crzy
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#3302728 - 03/05/14 08:55 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
Rand Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 7217
Loc: Akron,Ohio
the coolant temp when ford magically makes the gauge stay in the middle isnt the oil temp.

Even driving with a load it takes 15m+ to get the oil upto temp....



Edited by Rand (03/05/14 08:55 PM)
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#3302739 - 03/05/14 09:01 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: OVERKILL]
ram_man Offline


Registered: 03/15/13
Posts: 1474
Loc: southern mo
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Its been very cold I started it monday and then again today each time let it run a few minutes enought to warm up completely. She asked me to so I do. I dont drive my dodge but I let it run atleast once a week for a little bit. It's never had a problem with it.


Why? What kind of benefit do you hope to extract from not getting the oil up to temperature?

A vehicle, if parked with no intention of being driven, should be left alone until it is possible to drive it. You are dumping fuel into the oil, carboning up the piston tops, washing down the cylinder walls....etc. There's no logical reason to be doing this.



it did get up to temp. It ran long enough to melt all the ice off of it. There was a good amount. It warmed up more than enough for none of that to be a concern


Did I say coolant? I said OIL UP TO TEMPERATURE. Unless the car has an oil/coolant heat exchanger there isn't a snowball's chance in [censored] that you got the oil up to temperature.

You've put fuel in the oil and pointlessly wasted gasoline for no reason whatsoever. I mean you don't own a scan tool so I know for a fact you didn't verify coolant temperature. You are qualifying the car being warmed up by its ability to melt ice crzy


I do have a scan tool why would you think I didnt? I have a few hundred dollar one it does basic things completely different from what i spoke of in another thread such as the modis.

the car was warm enough to kick cooling fans on. And no I wouldnt do this all the time. But you act like doing it one time will somehow harm something. And thats plain ridiculous. But I own two gm products and two chryslers maybe they arent as sensitive as the poorly built ford....and yes I said poorly built that focus is a miserable car. Its been moslty reliable but it is definitely a penalty box.
_________________________
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95 Dodge ram 1500 5.9l 183,000 miles



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#3302757 - 03/05/14 09:14 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
Rolla07 Offline


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 1616
Loc: MTL, CANADA
If you let the battery sit for a week the car wont start? That should indicate a problem shouldnt it??!! I sometimes dont use my car for awhile and it starts fine..and its -20 to -30 during winter here...i dont think you are doing the car a favor...maybe once every 2 weeks run it for 30 mins around town til its hot..but ive never heard of someone starting it every few days..
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#3302759 - 03/05/14 09:17 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25659
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: ram_man

I do have a scan tool why would you think I didnt?


Because half the the threads about issues you post on here, you never make any mention of codes being read or the like shrug

Quote:
I have a few hundred dollar one it does basic things completely different from what i spoke of in another thread such as the modis.


Is it a Walmart Equis or something? I'm guessing you aren't getting real time readouts of various temperatures on the vehicle. I have a scanner that I spent a few bucks on (AutoEnginuity) and it does basically everything.

Quote:
the car was warm enough to kick cooling fans on.


They weren't on because you had the defrost running, which automatically turns on the fans once it is warm enough to fire the AC compressor?

Quote:
And no I wouldnt do this all the time.


You said you've been doing this for a while. And you said you do it all the time to your RAM.

Quote:
But you act like doing it one time will somehow harm something. And thats plain ridiculous.


So filling your oil with fuel is harmless? Cool. You're the expert obviously. I stand corrected.

Quote:
But I own two gm products and two chryslers maybe they arent as sensitive as the poorly built ford....and yes I said poorly built that focus is a miserable car. Its been moslty reliable but it is definitely a penalty box.


LOL!!! Dude, you bought a weapon truck that you are now complaining about the gas mileage on, put a fuel pump in it, still couldn't get it working, took it to a shop who replaced the filter put ANOTHER pump in it, and then you replaced the O2 today hoping it fixes your 80's gas mileage problem. You have a Saturn with a mystery misfire.... Do I need to go digging back through your other threads?

You flood your mom's Focus and then pump the pedal, flooding it worse because you didn't know enough to go WOT to do a flood clear start and the car is a POS? And seriously, you drive a Saturn and call the Focus a penalty box? I've had plenty of seat time in both big guy and the Focus is the nicer car. Yeah, there are nicer cars in the segment in terms of interior (Jetta, 3-series) but a 2011 Focus isn't any more "miserable" than anything else that was in its price bracket.

And I know you have a dislike for Ford products, we've been through that your entire tenure on this board. So it comes as no surprise that you'd try to pass the buck on your own lack of knowledge as to the issue being with the vehicle's manufacturer and not resting solely on your shoulders where it belongs. You flooded the car and didn't know how to do a flood clear. Now you do. Live and learn.
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#3302760 - 03/05/14 09:20 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
Rolla07 Offline


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 1616
Loc: MTL, CANADA
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
I thought you were going to mechanic's school. Wouldn't a mechanic in training know both the answer and realize that what he was doing likely caused the issue?


I am in school thats why I know that starting a vehicle for 15 minutes or so to warm up shouldn't magically cause any issues. I told the tech the whole scenario he didnt seem to think that starting the vehicle on a regular basis would screw it up.
If that would cause it there would be alot of people who drive 5 miles or less to work having random hard start issues.
has everyone realized yet thats not the case?
I could walk out every day for a month and start my saturn for 1 minute then shut it off and I would bet it would never have a magical hard to start blowing black smoke issue. Yes I realize doing so wouldnt be intelligent but you could do it. Starting a car up twice in one week to warm up and clean the ice and snow off wouldn't cause the issues.

actually my schooling is a great example of this we have junk donated cars that we drive 50 feet from the cage into the school they are used for this constantly and they always run. Sometimes if they sat for a few months the battery would be dead but if we had to move it for the whole week that would be 50 feet every day for 5 days they always ran while doing so. 50 feet takes what lets say 2 minutes tops.


People generally take snow and ice off their cars and warm them up because they plan on going somewhere with them not just for warming the car up for the heck of it. This would result in issues. Like condensation in your oil. Moisture in oil.
_________________________
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#3302779 - 03/05/14 09:36 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
01rangerxl Offline


Registered: 04/08/06
Posts: 7112
Loc: Birmingham, AL
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
That's not good for either vehicle.

Cold doesn't kill batteries, heat does. Cold drains good batteries because a cold engine is harder to turn over.

Odds are, sitting there idling for a few minutes it's staying in open loop and running rich. That's not good for the engine or cats.


Its a relatively new car with heated o2 sensors it hits closed loop pretty quick. A general rule of thumb is 120 degrees and if it warming all the way up its kicking into closed loop.
its been around -10 - 15degrees here if I let the battery sit for a whole week in the cold it wont start the vehicle thats why I started it. Today was the last day of really cold so I probably wouldn't have started it again while she was gone.


Heated O2 sensors are nothing new, my 12 year old truck has them. It hits closed loop by 100*F water temp and pretty quickly when driving as indicated by a Scangauge, which eliminates guessing and rules of thumb. Doesn't mean the engine is running optimally at that point, and it's definitely not warmed all the way up at that point. Cold idling is the worst state for the car's engine to be in and is not the same as driving for the same length of time.

What is the actual water temp you are letting it get to (a number, not how much snow melted off the car)? Oil temp if you can access it? The t-stat probably doesn't open until 197*F. The gauge on the dash is practically meaningless.

If the battery goes dead after a week, the battery is already failing or there is a parasitic drain, and having the engine run in a suboptimal state to save it doesn't make good sense. Better to spend $100 on a new battery. Engines cost a lot more.

Why not just drive the car? You're burning gas anyway and driving is a lot better for it.
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#3302785 - 03/05/14 09:39 PM Re: ford focus hard start [Re: ram_man]
01rangerxl Offline


Registered: 04/08/06
Posts: 7112
Loc: Birmingham, AL
Originally Posted By: ram_man


the car was warm enough to kick cooling fans on. And no I wouldnt do this all the time. But you act like doing it one time will somehow harm something. And thats plain ridiculous. But I own two gm products and two chryslers maybe they arent as sensitive as the poorly built ford....and yes I said poorly built that focus is a miserable car. Its been moslty reliable but it is definitely a penalty box.


Hasn't the latest GM been a non-stop money pit that died promptly after you bought it, and one of the Chryslers doesn't move?
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