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#3302053 - 03/05/14 08:51 AM How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine?
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26511
Loc: Michigan
Is it basically similar to short tripping a gasoline engine, i.e. you get fuel dilution and moisture accumulation in the crank case? Or are there additional aspects to consider? I am a total diesel engine newbie.

Wife has a fairly short commute - about 3 miles each way. In the winter time, in her current gasoline engine car, coolant doesn't get up to normal temp, much less oil. The car does see an extended 200-mile hwy trip once or twice per month.

Back in the day, I've read diesel engines take longer to reach operating temp, but I'm not sure if this was accurate and if so, if it's still true today. Obviously, any possible MPG gains from a diesel would be lost if it's not running at operating temp.

Anyway, no particular diesel car/engine in mind at this point. I'm just trying to educate myself if there are some specific driving patterns/conditions where a modern diesel engine would not be advisable.

Thanks!
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#3302070 - 03/05/14 09:05 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
bullwinkle Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4228
Loc: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Some diesels warm up faster than others-my intercooled ones warm up more slowly than the old IDI N/A ones do. In my opinion, at least with pickups, it is much better to work them hard & get them hot, short trips tend to carbon load.
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#3302074 - 03/05/14 09:11 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
m6pwr Offline


Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 198
Loc: San Diego, CA
I've got a 2014 BMW 328d (fantastic car - 43-46 mpg urban/city, 51 mpg hwy, and a hoot to drive). It doesn't have a coolant temp gauge but does have oil temp. gauge. I haven't noticed any difference at all between warm up time for this car and other gas BMW's in same trip - - and I do pay close attention to the oil temps, always after a cold start drive it 'til the temp is up to normal (210 degrees) before I shut it down, even if that means going the long way around. I do that, but I'd never be able to convince my wife to do that.

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#3302089 - 03/05/14 09:25 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 34230
Loc: New Jersey
It's time at temperature, not just hitting a mark. A long drive now and again does wonders. If very cold, fuel,may be an issue; the problem I've read with the latest ones is that the particle trap may not regenerate properly...

There are lots of stories around about the EPA numbers being artificially low for diesels, perhaps because the warm-up time is longer and is not accomplished at idle the way it is in a gas engine.

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#3302090 - 03/05/14 09:28 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 13760
Loc: Upstate NY
My Cummins diesel warm up until I get to work, 30 miles away. (Well almost).

But others I know have issues with the particle trap and regenerate.
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Amsoil ATF in both vehicles & Magnefine filter.

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#3302137 - 03/05/14 10:09 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
drolds Offline


Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 71
Loc: KS, USA
Diesel engines are better suited to longer trips. If the 3 mile commute is going to be the daily usage, a diesel may not be a good fit. If you had two comparable cars, one a diesel and one a gas-hybrid, the diesel would win the efficiency game on highway driving while hybrid-gas could more cost effective in a short-trip city driving cycle. The diesel really needs at least 10 miles each way on a daily commute to be cost effective.
The basics of ownership are to take very good care of it with very strict maintenance. Air filters need to be of high quality and changed when full of contaminants. Many newer diesel vehicles have a visual indicator on the air-box that is tripped when the filter becomes too restricted. The fuel filters must be changed with OEM intervals at a minimum w/o exception and more often depending on how much crud is collecting in the fuel filter (time as well as miles driven are important on diesel). Very high quality oil and oil filters are a given for good diesel maintenance. Do not forget anti-gel additive in winter nor an
injector-cleaner/ lubricity fuel additive. All of these are key to preventing expensive repairs later. Don't forget oil analysis too- its cheap insurance.
Noting the cars you already drive, a M-Benz diesel would be terrific. Be sure to use an extremely high quality synthetic oil that meets Benz spec 229.51 for example. The VW-TDI is another that needs an extremely good oil.(The VW diesel is much better w/ a manual trans). I have significant experience servicing the above mentioned cars. There are also differences between the non-DPF 2006 and older cars and the 2007 and up ones with a DPF. The M-Benz will require Diesel exhaust fluid(for DPF) for any 2007 or newer vehicles is but one example. Let us know what exact car you eventually consider and I'm sure others who own such can chime in.

Dr. Olds

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#3302141 - 03/05/14 10:12 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
scurvy Offline


Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 2277
Loc: Chicago IL USA
VWAG TDIs that are short tripped suffer from coking the VNT mechanism in the turbocharger, oil buildup in the intercooler (from seeping past the turbo labyrinth seals) and relatively poor fuel economy. Oil dilution was not typically a concern in the past but post-injection engines will have that issue even moreso with short tripping... for that reason alone I would only want a urea SCR system. DPF will also do more frequent active regens with short trips.

Keep them on boost and up to temperature and they typically live long, happy lives.

For short trips, I would only recommend a gasser. Fuel economy will likely be the same and maintenance on a short tripped diesel will erode any savings at the pump very quickly.

FWIW, my Golf is extremely cold blooded and takes much longer than the Mazda to warm up. To help that I have pipe insulation foam blocking off the grill and a kilowatt Zerostart so my first start of the day in my garage is fairly warm... not so much after it's been sitting outside this horrible winter.
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#3302160 - 03/05/14 10:40 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7897
Loc: Saskatoon canada
3 summers ago when we first bought our forklift My dad and brother would just start it,work it for a half hour then shut it down.
We had a sample taken at 250 hours and iron was past 200ppm. Kraemer tractor called us and said they wanted to look at the machine because the previous used oil analysis were at 50ppm iron at 250 hours.
So they came out and did an inspection and found nothing wrong. So the technician asked how it was operated.
Once he heard about the frequent starting and shutting down he explained that's why the iron was so high.
So he told my dad the exact same thing I did. Diesel is cheap compared to an overhaul on one of these engine.
We now let it run all day. It start in the morning and gets shut off at days end. And our used oil analysis look consistent again without any anomalies.
So not really short tripping but it's an example of short runs and the added wear associated with cold starts.
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#3302184 - 03/05/14 11:18 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1363
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Off hand I can think of being stuck in perpetual regeneration with regards to the DPF. I would think slightly higher soot loading depending on whether it's hwy or city.
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#3302204 - 03/05/14 11:35 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 8695
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
Nissan Leaf.
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#3302735 - 03/05/14 08:59 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: ARCOgraphite]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5561
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Nissan Leaf.


Even plug-in hybrid will do fine in a 3 mile commute. Or better a bike or walk.

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#3302750 - 03/05/14 09:09 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: friendly_jacek]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26511
Loc: Michigan
Thanks, all. Sounds like I should stay away from diesel here.


Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Even plug-in hybrid will do fine in a 3 mile commute. Or better a bike or walk.

Sure. Please ask your wife to take a 3 mile walk in -10F weather with 2 feet of snow on the ground and report back from where you'll be sleeping tonight. smile

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'15 Q5 3.0T
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#3302768 - 03/05/14 09:28 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5561
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
report back from where you'll be sleeping tonight. smile



Same as every night: a dog house.

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#3305881 - 03/09/14 01:30 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
sdude2k2000 Offline


Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 380
Loc: Southern Oregon, USA
Someone said it already and I agree that the largest issue with short trips on a DPF equipped diesel deals with the regen process. Diesels produce more soot when cold... so the DPF is going to try and regen more frequently. That process takes approx 10-15min to complete (depending on your specific vehicle). So if the trip to & from work only takes 10ish minutes, then the cycle may not have adequate time to complete. If your vehicle uses post-cylinder-injection for igniting the DPF, then you'll more than likely run into fuel dilution issues which is already an issue even with normal operation. If your vehicle has an extra injector in the DPF, then fuel dilution is a moot point by comparison..


Edited by sdude2k2000 (03/09/14 01:31 AM)
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#3306399 - 03/09/14 06:33 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 219
Loc: Chicago suburbs
There is also the possibility that if the regen never gets to complete, there will over time be enough soot buildup to require the DPF to be replaced.

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#3306711 - 03/10/14 02:38 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
sixtwoturbo Offline


Registered: 01/28/14
Posts: 33
Loc: Abbotsford, BC
All depends on what your driving? Any pre emission diesel is ok for short trips as the oil doesn't get polluted with water etc like a gasser and a good burn once in awhile will clean it out.


Edited by sixtwoturbo (03/10/14 02:38 AM)
_________________________
1984 G20 Get A Way van, 6.2 diesel with a remote mounted turbo-HX35 with a billet 60mm HX40 comp wheel, 20 psi, running waste fuels and jet fuel.

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#3307430 - 03/10/14 04:53 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26511
Loc: Michigan
I'm talking modern (new) diesel: MB BlueTec, VW TDI, BMW Turbo Diesel.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3319557 - 03/22/14 07:20 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1715
Loc: London, England
You will have issues QPete.

Short trips round town are bad for even 10yr old turbo diesels. Variable vane turbos sieze up. Egrs clog up. Inlet manifold fills up with ssme rubbish as egr. Like a soft sticky tar.

Now with dpfs they are almost a no go for town work.

My Jag needs to be taken for runs if used round town a lot. And that gets hot and is kept running for hours on end.

Would i have a turbo diesel if i could get a 3.0 supercharged v6 petrol Jag with either affordable fuel or LPG? No. Personal preference would be the NA 5.0 V8.

Hopefully the newer diesels with Urea systems will be better.

But lgv and buses have has these systems for years in Europe and they still have their dpfs cleaned regularly as part of normal maintenance.

One company, Ceramex, has been doig this for many years and has just rolled out the service for cars.
_________________________
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08 Pathfinder 2.5 Dci Sold with 125k
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#3319558 - 03/22/14 07:22 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1715
Loc: London, England
Sorry should have added.

DI diesels were the slowest to warm up when they were introduced back in the 90's but they did improve this over the years.

Common rail are much better in this respect.
At least in my experience.
_________________________
06 Clio1.5DCi,141k 6kOCI Shell Extra 5w40
08 Pathfinder 2.5 Dci Sold with 125k
12 Jaguar XJL 3.0 D Luxury 120k 8kOCI Mob 1 ESP 5w30

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#3329727 - 03/31/14 09:28 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
hattaresguy Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 5325
Loc: CT
They don't like it. I won't buy a diesel truck for many reasons but one of them is all my job sites are close together and in town. I wouldn't ever warm up a Cummins on cold winter days, even with the radiator blocked.

Diesels only really work if you drive a lot. Municipalities that short trip them, especially new trucks with regen have nothing but problems.



Edited by hattaresguy (03/31/14 09:31 PM)

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#3345120 - 04/16/14 10:20 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Hullthumper Offline


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 22
Loc: fl
I cannot speak from experience with diesel automobiles, but I have a fair amount of experience with marine diesels and I feel that short tripping a diesel car or truck would be similar to the type of use that many diesels in sailboats receive. They are often started and used for a short time and often never reach operating temperature for any significant period of time or are run at or near idle without load to charge batteries, and it definitely causes problems and reduces the engines life.

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#3345906 - 04/17/14 08:07 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Hullthumper]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 219
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Originally Posted By: Hullthumper
I cannot speak from experience with diesel automobiles, but I have a fair amount of experience with marine diesels and I feel that short tripping a diesel car or truck would be similar to the type of use that many diesels in sailboats receive. They are often started and used for a short time and often never reach operating temperature for any significant period of time or are run at or near idle without load to charge batteries, and it definitely causes problems and reduces the engines life.


And they don't even have to cope with the kind of emissions equipment that needs to be fully warmed up for optimal performance.

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#3346075 - 04/17/14 10:44 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
virginoil Offline


Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 1086
Loc: western australia
New product from Penrite just released which may help cleaning and assisting in regeneration of diesel particulate filters (DPF's).

Its not recommended t for use in vehicles not fitted with DPF's, which should use the normal diesel injector cleaner.

See link below to product data sheet.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/6DPF%20CLEANER%20JANUARY%202014.pdf


Edited by virginoil (04/17/14 10:46 PM)
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#3348123 - 04/20/14 11:11 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
BoostFiend Offline


Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Kansas
I think it will be fine actually since you do multiple 200 mile drives each month. That will clear out the DPF and any fuel dilution.
My wife has a 12 VW Golf TDI with a DPF and we have had it for 2 1/2 years and 30k miles. Her work is 2 miles from home. But she drives it to her families house about 100 mile round trip a few times a month. We hardly ever notice any regen's.

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#3350544 - 04/22/14 08:50 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: bigjl]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: bigjl
You will have issues QPete.

Short trips round town are bad for even 10yr old turbo diesels. Variable vane turbos sieze up. Egrs clog up. Inlet manifold fills up with ssme rubbish as egr. Like a soft sticky tar.

Now with dpfs they are almost a no go for town work.


agree.
short trips, modern diesels = problems waiting
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#3355824 - 04/28/14 04:42 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Volvohead Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 3550
Loc: SE Pa
We've had plenty of diesels. Currently down to one, an '09 JSW TDI.

Even on the newer ones, one long drive per week is enough to keep things Kosher.

Less frequently than that, and things don't turn out as well over the long haul.

Because of their combustion efficiency, diesels run inherently cooler than gassers. A turbo actually can be a help for a shorter-tripper in that regard.

For very short commutes, opt for a hybrid or electric over a diesel. Diesels earn their keep on the longer runs.

Hope that helps.

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#3355986 - 04/28/14 06:47 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1199
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Diesels like to be treated like women.... they take a while to warm up but can go a long time.
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#3355990 - 04/28/14 06:50 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: TiredTrucker]
satinsilver Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 2915
Loc: Ohio
Especially the ones with low miles on them.

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#3356390 - 04/29/14 03:52 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
DS9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 26
Loc: Belgrade, Serbia, Europe
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: bigjl
You will have issues QPete.

Short trips round town are bad for even 10yr old turbo diesels. Variable vane turbos sieze up. Egrs clog up. Inlet manifold fills up with ssme rubbish as egr. Like a soft sticky tar.

Now with dpfs they are almost a no go for town work.


agree.
short trips, modern diesels = problems waiting


Oh, really - yes it is.

But you shoud say this to many taxi drivers here in Belgrade (3 milion people capital od Serbia).

About 50% of them (in total ~ 10,000 licenced taxi vehicles) drives (common rail) diesel cars that are old about 10 yaers, and tipicaly without DPF/FAP. And most of these cars have been purchased/imported used from western europe with mileage not less than 100,000 km, often much more.

But they know they should change oil regulary every ~10,000 km.

My beloved wife drives litle diesel car - Citroen C3 1.4 HDi 8V, 2006. (same as peugeot 206, same engine) w/o DPF. And it`s quite_ok/superb for city crowd and short trips.

But I know that it is better to put 5W-30, a little bit thinner (but also recomended by manufacturer) oil (ACEA C2, PSA B71 2290).

Acording board computer for last 2000 km. an average speed was 22 km/h, diesel comsuption 5.5 L /100 km.

Oil consumption ~1.5 L / 12,000 km (mesured by me)
Winter temperature (sometimes)-20 C, summer +40 C.

However, diesels with DPF/FAP are other ball gome.

For this reason, important message for UK drivers https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-for-mot-to-test-for-diesel-particulate-filter

***

Yes, driving cars = problems waiting






Edited by DS9 (04/29/14 03:58 AM)

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#3357531 - 04/30/14 09:32 AM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: DS9]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1363
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: DS9
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: bigjl
You will have issues QPete.

Short trips round town are bad for even 10yr old turbo diesels. Variable vane turbos sieze up. Egrs clog up. Inlet manifold fills up with ssme rubbish as egr. Like a soft sticky tar.

Now with dpfs they are almost a no go for town work.


agree.
short trips, modern diesels = problems waiting


Oh, really - yes it is.

But you shoud say this to many taxi drivers here in Belgrade (3 milion people capital od Serbia).

About 50% of them (in total ~ 10,000 licenced taxi vehicles) drives (common rail) diesel cars that are old about 10 yaers, and tipicaly without DPF/FAP. And most of these cars have been purchased/imported used from western europe with mileage not less than 100,000 km, often much more.

But they know they should change oil regulary every ~10,000 km.

My beloved wife drives litle diesel car - Citroen C3 1.4 HDi 8V, 2006. (same as peugeot 206, same engine) w/o DPF. And it`s quite_ok/superb for city crowd and short trips.

But I know that it is better to put 5W-30, a little bit thinner (but also recomended by manufacturer) oil (ACEA C2, PSA B71 2290).

Acording board computer for last 2000 km. an average speed was 22 km/h, diesel comsuption 5.5 L /100 km.

Oil consumption ~1.5 L / 12,000 km (mesured by me)
Winter temperature (sometimes)-20 C, summer +40 C.

However, diesels with DPF/FAP are other ball gome.

For this reason, important message for UK drivers https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-for-mot-to-test-for-diesel-particulate-filter

***

Yes, driving cars = problems waiting






I wonder how UK authorities are going to confirm the DPF hasn't been bypassed via internal straight pipe and/or hollowed out? The tuners in the UK already do this.
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
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#3360787 - 05/03/14 04:38 PM Re: How bad is short tripping for a diesel engine? [Re: Quattro Pete]
sw99 Offline


Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 1449
Loc: Colorado
My previous PSD took 10-15 minutes longer than my gas engines to get to normal operating temperature. I absolutely love the diesel but it just wasn't right for our needs. We do lots of short trips when used and the truck would often sit for long periods of time. Perhaps it's different on cars but they can be very expensive to maintain also.
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