Son of Dexos coming 2015

[Nate1979]

I have never heard such ridiculous arguments. Are you telling me that if GM published the Dexos spec that Walmart has published enough performance info on their Supertech oils to allow you to judge if it meets the spec or not? You have got to be kidding. Please post a single example of an oil company that has published all of their performance specs for a single oil showing they meet a spec. Any single spec. I have never seen this level of details published on BITOG ever. The people who actually need to know the spec (the blenders) know full well the details of Dexos.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Require an oil with a transparent standard?
Sure.
Require an oil with an opaque standard and a logo the blender has to pay for?
Cash grab, pure and simple.
Nothing wrong with GM setting an oil spec.
Everything wrong with GM not publishing the spec and charging a royalty on every quart for the lame logo.
Mercedes doesn't do this, VAG doesn't do this and BMW doesn't do this.
Why should lowly GM?
I'm quite sure that any oil carrying the Dexos logo is a good oil.
The thing is, many others are as well and without some recognized spec, like A3/B4, buyers are left in the dark as to what is really required.
Pay GM or you can't have an oil meeting the spec?
Ludicrous!


Agree

And I wonder if in a roundabout way it violates that Moss Magnussen Act?

After all you are required to buy an oil that profits the car manufacturer.


Agree overall

They get around it by allowing other oil companies to license their product. So they are not forcing the consumer to by a specific brand or their brand. To them, the are offering the consumer a "choice" and that kinda gets around it. Still not in the spirit of the law IMO.

However, it is their burden proof to say you did not meet their specs. So, there is that loophole that as long as you use an oil that meets the specs of Dexos, then it is fine (even if it is not Dexos licensed) however, because they keep that spec secret, then it makes it a big murky mess that the consumer might not easily be able to know beforehand.

For example, "Supertech Syn" (our favorite non-Dexos debate brand) could potentially meet Dexos standards (It's NOACK is meets the Dexos standard btw) but without knowing those "proprietary" tests GM uses, we dont know for certain. So, logically, we can neither confirm nor deny that any non-dexos labeled oil meets Dexos spec. Because it is a license and has that "payment" attached to it, no-one knows if the non-labeled oils are less than spec or that the blender/oil just did not pay the fee.

Shame that GM "bought back" the government's stake because it would have been interesting to use FOIA to dig out the Dexos standards (but I doubt that would fly anyway)

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I have been outspoken about Dexos... as it only helps GM bottom line and not the consumer.

I mentioned many months ago, on this topic, to not underestimate the power of the bean counters. GM isn't looking to get rich off of dexos1 royalties. Nonetheless, I can certainly see one or more bean counters insisting that a new, all encompassing specification that includes advertising and labels be self-funding.

And I don't begrudge them, completely, for not publishing everything about dexos1 requirements for free and in the open. We all know that "meets and exceeds" can be a reasonable alternative. Meeting and exceeding is a lot easier when someone gives the criteria away.

GM isn't an open source company. They're not in business to give intellectual property away for free.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Garak

GM isn't an open source company. They're not in business to give intellectual property away for free.


Good point, and very astute. The bean counters run car companies, the bigger ones even more so...

 

[demarpaint]

I'm just curious, how does this compare to Mobil not meeting the MS6395 Chrysler spec? There's lots of talk about GM grabbing cash, management, the bean counters, etc. in this thread, it got me thinking about Chrysler and Mobil. Is it just sour grapes/politics, or is Mobil not up to the task in Chrysler applications? Dangling the warranty carrot in front of the nose of any new car owner is always something on many of our minds. Thanks.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I have been outspoken about Dexos... as it only helps GM bottom line and not the consumer.
GM isn't looking to get rich off of dexos1 royalties. GM isn't an open source company. They're not in business to give intellectual property away for free.

+1. its true and why should any intellectual property be given away for free anyways...

 

[Trav]

Quote:
I have been outspoken about Dexos... as it only helps GM bottom line and not the consumer.


I can send anyone out for a qt of oil and tell them just look for the green Dexos 1 label on the front of the bottle and be sure they are coming back with a suitable GM oil regardless of the brand chosen.

It guarantees the oil meets a standard the manufacturer has set for the engine to perform properly and operate within the Parameters of the OLM.
It also insures against any warranty issues that may arise from the use of incorrect oils.
IMO this certainly does help consumers.

 

[Dallas69]

If consumers are required to buy only a certain oil then they should be able to see the specs
Only GM lovers see it as ok
Thank you sir may I have another

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I can send anyone out for a qt of oil and tell them just look for the green Dexos 1 label on the front of the bottle and be sure they are coming back with a suitable GM oil regardless of the brand chosen.

It guarantees the oil meets a standard the manufacturer has set for the engine to perform properly and operate within the Parameters of the OLM.
It also insures against any warranty issues that may arise from the use of incorrect oils.
IMO this certainly does help consumers.


Yes, and I can send out a Subaru Customer to pick up an oil with the API SN/ILSAC GF-5 label with the matching weight and they have a oil that meets the manufacturers standard so the oil performs properly and operates within the parameters set by the OEM. This insures against any warranty issue that may arise from the incorrect oil.

The consumer already had this service and it was "free".

---

What intellectual property is GM "selling" with the Dexos label? Last I heard, they were in the business of assembling global vehicles. Are the making their own R&D oil?

The different between Dexos's specs being open-sources is that any company can make the product and achieve the label rather than the oil company having to buy the label. There is nothing wrong with GM setting a spec for their vehicles and having a green Dexos label... the definitely WRONG is having a proprietary standard and charging for it. Then you are forcing consumers to act blindly (and pay more) in order to achieve their warranty requirements which GM receives that kick-back money.

Is an oil better because of the Dexos lable? We don't know. Would Motorcraft be a suitable oil choice? Maybe, but I doubt they would run out and pay GM for that label.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
If consumers are required to buy only a certain oil then they should be able to see the specs

Does GM let you see the source code in their ECUs? If I buy a certain car, shouldn't I be able to see the code?

You don't need to buy a certain oil for GMs (as in a specific oil). There are many brands and varieties out there. As always, there is a choice. One can choose to ignore recommendations.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
What intellectual property is GM "selling" with the Dexos label? Last I heard, they were in the business of assembling global vehicles. Are the making their own R&D oil?

GM made a certain specification for oil. People in GM obviously wanted to make the R&D, licensing, and marketing for the specification to be self-funding. So, they charge for licensing. They don't give out the spec, because otherwise there's no point in having it in the first place. An open source specification model would not allow GM accountants to recoup the costs involved in such a direct fashion.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Some of our simplistic thinkers have forgotten the tremendous R&D costs associated with modern automobile production across a worldwide marketplace.

GM has every right to charge for engineering expertise. If it is not for you then buy a different car.

I like the simplification of the dexos specs, and I would be very surprised if it really costs very much at all...

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Some of our simplistic thinkers have forgotten the tremendous R&D costs associated with modern automobile production across a worldwide marketplace.

GM has every right to charge for engineering expertise. If it is not for you then buy a different car.

I like the simplification of the dexos specs, and I would be very surprised if it really costs very much at all...


So does Ford, Chrysler, and Toyota and the other makes. However, what happens when others jump into the licensing game?

The problem is that for every bottle of Mobil1, PU, Havoline Syn, and so on there is a fraction of the cost going to GM... even if you own a different brand.

 

[strat81]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
If consumers are required to buy only a certain oil then they should be able to see the specs
Only GM lovers see it as ok
Thank you sir may I have another


"Require" is a strong word that doesn't appear very much in maintenance sections of owners manuals, at least not without other qualifiers.

I don't have a Dexos vehicle, but my guess is that the oil section of the manual says something to the effect of, "A Dexos-approved oil is the best choice for your vehicle. Using an oil that has not been Dexos-approved may result in denial of warranty claims in the event of engine damage during the warranty period."

Theoretically, GM would have to prove that a non-approved oil caused the engine failure. They'd probably just deny the claim, the owner would get [censored], and life would go on.

I noticed PU 5W-30 isn't on the Dexos list. Sadly, I can picture some GM flunky saying that an engine failure occurred because of the unapproved PU oil.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Trav


I can send anyone out for a qt of oil and tell them just look for the green Dexos 1 label on the front of the bottle and be sure they are coming back with a suitable GM oil regardless of the brand chosen.

It guarantees the oil meets a standard the manufacturer has set for the engine to perform properly and operate within the Parameters of the OLM.
It also insures against any warranty issues that may arise from the use of incorrect oils.
IMO this certainly does help consumers.
What are the odds someone is going to know so little about oil that can't look for the correct spec but know enough to look for the Dexos label? Since you were giving the orders. You could have just as easily sent them out with instructions to look for WSS-M2C945-A on the back of the bottle. Is it the letters and numbers that are the problem? Dexos is easy to remember? Maybe the other manufactures can come up with catchy short words as well to cater to those consumers.

 

[strat81]

LOL, the front of the bottle would like a Cup Car body panel if every manufacturer required their special logo to be on the front.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: strat81
LOL, the front of the bottle would like a Cup Car body panel if every manufacturer required their special logo to be on the front.

Dexos themed animated show...

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
GM has every right to charge for engineering expertise. If it is not for you then buy a different car.


So does Ford, Chrysler, and Toyota and the other makes. However, what happens when others jump into the licensing game?

Toyota and Honda make it a point to nearly pressure the vehicle owners to buy their own oil brands aka OEM oils... thats why we have TGMO and HGMO... etc. !

 

[Dallas69]

Certain oil and antifreeze
Whats next
Only certain tires

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: hatt
What are the odds someone is going to know so little about oil that can't look for the correct spec but know enough to look for the Dexos label?

GM owners are a select group.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
GM has every right to charge for engineering expertise.

Perhaps they should buy an oil company and sell their tribology expertise at a profit.

Oh, if they did that and insisted you use the oil, they'd actually have to give it to you free (Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act - P.L. 93-637).

Back in the 80s GM found that a high warranty rate on engines in northern states and Canada was a result of API oils failing to meet their low temperature specifications. They imposed on the oil industry to tighten up. It did.

In the early 2000s they found that the ZDDP was killing catalytic converters and lobbied the industry to reduce the use of that anti-wear additive. The industry did it.

Dexos is not GM adding value to the automotive industry as a whole as a cooperative partner in the automotive industry. It is the GM tail wagging the industry dog.

I don't think they have the marketing clout to do that anymore, and frankly the Dexos requirement would be a black mark for GM in my selection of a new automobile.

 

[MKZman]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
GM has every right to charge for engineering expertise.

Perhaps they should buy an oil company and sell their tribology expertise at a profit.


Do they sell their own branded oil like Motorcraft? They can require Dexos for warranty and sell oil. Some would follow today as they have with other GM specs. Now, does not some oil companies claim they meet some specs of an oil without getting it certified?