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#3297689 - 02/28/14 07:14 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: TiredTrucker]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Ethanol is ideally a regional fuel. I don't think it needs to be sent all over the country either.


It eliminates a lot of pollution in the big cities. We have guys here whining because they think it's gonna hurt their Camry. I don't give a dump. Most of the resistance is coming out of Florida where they think "gasohol" is a new thing.

Have you seen the pollution clouds in Denver, LA, NY etc? We are not going to go backwards because some don't understand. I bet they're still looking for leaded gas too.

A lot of these old farts are going to die off soon anyway.

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#3297698 - 02/28/14 07:21 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: turtlevette]
Panzerman Offline


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 2477
Loc: Daytona, Florida
You don't understand. Do you know how much more fuel you burn to develop the crops, That you don't feed livestock, to get worse fuel mileage and burn more gas. Ethanol is joke. People in Florida hate it, because we have a lot of small engines and outboards. Yeah, us old guys will die and you "genius's" will be riding around on bicycles, because you don't want to offend turtles.

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#3297715 - 02/28/14 07:41 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: markum]
edhackett Online   content


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1512
Loc: Sequim, WA
E10 has no net benefit on air pollution. It helped when engines were carbureted, but any benefit on a modern fuel injected car operating in closed loop is offset by the greater amount of fuel that needs to be burned. These studies were done at my previous employer. The data is the property of the study sponsors, so I am not free to post details.

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_issues_in_Brazil for the effect of running a large portion of the fleet on ethanol. South America, Brazil in particular, was becoming one of our larger clients for air analysis at the time I retired.

Ed
_________________________
Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.

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#3297716 - 02/28/14 07:42 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: turtlevette]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7067
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: hatt
I bought pure gas for the OPE yesterday.


OPE? I don't know what that is but I bet it smells like an old man.

I can't imagine that anyone who drives a 4 cyl camry would care what they put in it or if you'd be able to tell any difference.

Hot rodders are going to want to run the E85 fuel. It's catching on because it makes more power and doesn't detonate in high compression engines. The bigger percentage ethanol we can get in gas the better our stuff is going to run because of the octane boost.

New Yankeeville? Dude the civil war is over and done with. You've got so many chips on your shoulder it must be hard to stand up straight.










Huh?

What's this extra octane you speak of. Because I assure you that 87,89,91 and maybe 93 is all the octane we will be getting. So your comment makes no sense.
Yeah some hot rodders like e-85 but how many of those cars are daily drivers.
Our octane levels aren't going to be changing,just the ethanol concentration will.

So to correct your post: the bigger percentage of ethanol YOU get the worse your equipment will run because the octane levels won't change so that equipment will get fuel with less actual gasoline,but the same octane.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3297727 - 02/28/14 08:03 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: Panzerman]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
People in Florida hate it, because we have a lot of small engines and outboards.


Do you know how ridiculous you sound? You think you have more outboards and small engines than the rest of the U.S.? Florida is a puny part of the picture.

Modern two stroke oils provide excellent lubricity and corrosion protection when mixed in ethanol blends.






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#3297818 - 02/28/14 09:56 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: Panzerman]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 936
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
You don't understand. Do you know how much more fuel you burn to develop the crops, That you don't feed livestock, to get worse fuel mileage and burn more gas. Ethanol is joke. People in Florida hate it, because we have a lot of small engines and outboards. Yeah, us old guys will die and you "genius's" will be riding around on bicycles, because you don't want to offend turtles.


Do you have any experience in farming or are you just repeating something you heard? Farming uses LESS fuel than ever before per acre (ever hear of low till and no till farming?), yields per acre are thru the roof (A farmer in Illinois set a new record last fall... 454 bushels per acre, documented), and only a part of the corn is used to make ethanol, the rest is corn oil (you know, something your french fries are cooked in), and high protein feed supplements (very much in big demand by livestock and poultry producers here and outside the U.S.), and a huge laundry list of other products.... from the very same kernels of corn that are used to make ethanol. And how do I know all of this... I farm and I haul products from corn production facilities. I currently have 45,000 lb of 60% protein Biolys feed supplement made from Dried Distillers Grain after ethanol production at the Cargil bio refinery in Blair, NE, going to a major livestock feed supplier in Michigan. There is no loss of food, both human and animal varieties, from making ethanol from corn. The nonsense it spouted by folks who think that once a kernel of corn is used to make ethanol, the rest is thrown away. If you knew agriculture at all, you would know that NOTHING is wasted.

True, it gets less mpg, but when I use E85, I only get about 15% less mpg while using only 15% gas. The net is a savings in both cost per mile and total gas consumption. This OLD GUY is more than happy to fill up with E85. My pickup does great and my cost per mile for using it is substantially lower than with any gas only product. Oh yeah, and my small gas engines regularly use E10. I have a John Deere rider mower with over 500 hours that has seen nothing but E10 in the tank. Same for my pressure washer and portable generators.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3297855 - 02/28/14 10:36 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: Panzerman]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
you "genius's" will be riding around on bicycles, because you don't want to offend turtles.


If we have to ride bikes it'll be the fault of people like you who are being led by the nose by big oil.

Do you want to pay $10 a gallon for gasoline? Can you afford that? Do you think that they'd get that price if they could? You're crazy if you don't think so. OPEC, Russia, Mexico can hold us hostage on oil. There is only so much left. It's going to happen. It's just a matter of time.

If we create a world ethanol market, that gives us an alternative and keeps the pressure on to keep oil affordable. We've got to have a strategy and we have to get going on it now. NOW.

But if you're more concerned about your chain saw and string trimmer....

sheez Sheeple

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#3297865 - 02/28/14 10:51 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: Clevy]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Clevy

Huh?


Wake up.

E85 is around 105 octane because of the ethanol content. The more ethanol you put in a gasoline of a given octane the more you will raise the octane of the overall mix.

Maybe I'm just a failure as a teacher. But, it's obvious to me. How did they put it in the textbooks? Obvious to the most casual observer.

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#3297869 - 02/28/14 10:59 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: edhackett]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: edhackett
The data is the property of the study sponsors, so I am not free to post details.

Ed


WOW earthshaking study there. And they're holding on to it, why?

Alcohol is one of the cleanest burning fuels on the planet. And that's only 1 of several reasons we need it. See my posts above.

Brazil is polluted for other reasons.

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#3297886 - 02/28/14 11:39 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: turtlevette]
edhackett Online   content


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1512
Loc: Sequim, WA
Originally Posted By: turtlevette

Maybe I'm just a failure as a teacher.


Yes, yes you are. Your condescending, know it all, holier than thou attitude has assured that nobody will take anything you say seriously.

Ed
_________________________
Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.

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#3297888 - 02/28/14 11:49 PM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: turtlevette]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7067
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Clevy

Huh?


Wake up.

E85 is around 105 octane because of the ethanol content. The more ethanol you put in a gasoline of a given octane the more you will raise the octane of the overall mix.

Maybe I'm just a failure as a teacher. But, it's obvious to me. How did they put it in the textbooks? Obvious to the most casual observer.



I'm wide awake.
So e-85 is 105 octane. That's great. Too bad no engine is mass produced for consumer purchase.
What seems to be flying way over your head is that pump fuel octane ratings will not change.
So that means if e-15 and e-20 become the norm then we will not benefit from any higher octane fuels,we will still have what's available now,except the with ethanol content increased which means less actual gasoline which then means engines have to burn more if it to equal the same volume of gasoline.
So your whole theory of higher octane making engines run better is hogwash. For 1 engines are built according to the available octane fuel and 99% of the time they are built for the lowest commonly available so that theory can be flushed down the toilet.
So turt I suggest you wake up. I didn't make the world I live in I just adapt to succeed in it.
If your a teacher I'm not surprised.
Those who can do do,those who can't ........
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3297892 - 03/01/14 12:35 AM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: turtlevette]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26258
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Clevy

Huh?


Wake up.

E85 is around 105 octane because of the ethanol content. The more ethanol you put in a gasoline of a given octane the more you will raise the octane of the overall mix.

Maybe I'm just a failure as a teacher. But, it's obvious to me. How did they put it in the textbooks? Obvious to the most casual observer.


turtlevette, you claim to be an engineer, but explore and proclaim some of the most simplisitic arguyments that I have ever come across, and when you are outclassed, you resort to name calling...

What exactly IS your degree, and where did you get it ?

I'm interested

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#3297916 - 03/01/14 01:39 AM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: edhackett]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: edhackett

Your condescending, know it all, holier than thou attitude


NO I'm not holy.

I'm an EE. If you want more detail, I want to know what ya'll do and why you think you know something in this area.

Like I said. I see the exact same arguments from people who are extreme right wing or libertarian or whatever on other sites. Exactly. Line for line. Anybody can regurgitate stuff. Who can think for themselves?

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#3297923 - 03/01/14 02:35 AM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: markum]
edhackett Online   content


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1512
Loc: Sequim, WA
Thirty two years with the Desert Research Institute http://www.dri.edu as an analytical chemist doing environmental research. My first 15 years were doing geochemistry and isotope geochemistry, including projects at the Nevada Test Site and Yucca Mountain. The past 17 years I was doing air quality research; both characterization and health effects. I've worked on all aspects of air quality sampling; from experimental design, sampler design and construction, and developing analytical techniques. I've worked on projects all over the U.S., Canada, Mexico, South America, China, Israel, Egypt, and others. So, yea I picked up a bit of knowledge about about air quality.

There's much I'd love to share here but am not free to discuss in public, as much of our work is contract, and it is up to the sponsor to release the research to the public, or not. The ethanol study I mentioned above was sponsored by the California Air Resources Board. The results are moot, as politics trump science; ethanol no longer offers any improvement in air quality, but the mandate to use it will remain due to other political reasons.

Ed
_________________________
Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.

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#3297961 - 03/01/14 07:00 AM Re: Pure Gas vs. 10% E [Re: markum]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 910
Loc: Florida
If only "someone" could post actual information/data showing ethanol's environmental virtues.
_________________________
2013 F150 5.0, PU 10w-30, FL500s
2010 Camry 2.5, PP 5w-30, Wix 57047

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