Red line and Used Oil Analysis
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Originally Posted By: garageman402
Yes I have heard that RedLine's chemistry cleans deposits that may have accumulated wear metals, spiking the readings in UOAs. Best to run an initial load of RL a very short interval, IMHO.
From what I've heard, it's because of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation
Yes I have heard that RedLine's chemistry cleans deposits that may have accumulated wear metals, spiking the readings in UOAs. Best to run an initial load of RL a very short interval, IMHO.
From what I've heard, it's because of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation
One more reason why I refuse to do UOAs besides their inaccuracies/inconsistent results (unless one spends the cost of a new, high performance crate engine on them).
I would rather put the (sometimes A LOT OF) UOA coin towards using said better oil in the first place!!
Especially given how everyone on here is so quick to point out that all modern engines will last at least 500K+ miles, with regular OCIs, on even decent modern dino oils.
(And yes, I know that UOAs also tell of other problems besides wear metals; i.e.; silicon injestion, anti-freeze intrusion, etc., for all of you 'defenders' out there.
)
I would rather put the (sometimes A LOT OF) UOA coin towards using said better oil in the first place!!
Especially given how everyone on here is so quick to point out that all modern engines will last at least 500K+ miles, with regular OCIs, on even decent modern dino oils.
(And yes, I know that UOAs also tell of other problems besides wear metals; i.e.; silicon injestion, anti-freeze intrusion, etc., for all of you 'defenders' out there.
If I were to use a boutique oil, Red Line would be at the top of my list. My cars have no use for it. I like their entire approach though from formulation to marketing.
I still think their oils are not that good for long drains. Their drain interval recommendations are poor.
Redline is built for engines with flat tappet cams and engines that see ridiculously high temperatures.
I still think their oils are not that good for long drains. Their drain interval recommendations are poor.
Redline is built for engines with flat tappet cams and engines that see ridiculously high temperatures.
Originally Posted By: buster
I still think their oils are not that good for long drains. Their drain interval recommendations are poor.
I did a 20K OCI in my Golf TDI with Red Lines 5w20 and it was fine. Group V TBN retention is better than most people realized.
I still think their oils are not that good for long drains. Their drain interval recommendations are poor.
I did a 20K OCI in my Golf TDI with Red Lines 5w20 and it was fine. Group V TBN retention is better than most people realized.
Originally Posted By: buster
If I were to use a boutique oil, Red Line would be at the top of my list. My cars have no use for it. I like their entire approach though from formulation to marketing.
I still think their oils are not that good for long drains. Their drain interval recommendations are poor.
Redline is built for engines with flat tappet cams and engines that see ridiculously high temperatures.
Redline handles long drains fine.I know 3 people who have run it out to 10,000 miles with no issues.
If I were to use a boutique oil, Red Line would be at the top of my list. My cars have no use for it. I like their entire approach though from formulation to marketing.
I still think their oils are not that good for long drains. Their drain interval recommendations are poor.
Redline is built for engines with flat tappet cams and engines that see ridiculously high temperatures.
Redline handles long drains fine.I know 3 people who have run it out to 10,000 miles with no issues.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Redline handles long drains fine.I know 3 people who have run it out to 10,000 miles with no issues.
I run it out to 10K miles regularly, and I STILL feel like I am changing it too soon!!
As has been said, it may only start with an 8.0-8.8 TBN, BUT, it retains that TBN longer than some group 2/3, 3+ oils which start much higher!
I can only wonder what the TBN retention is on Motul 300V, which is a high group 5 basestock oil which starts at a TBN of 10.9-11.7!
Redline handles long drains fine.I know 3 people who have run it out to 10,000 miles with no issues.
I run it out to 10K miles regularly, and I STILL feel like I am changing it too soon!!
As has been said, it may only start with an 8.0-8.8 TBN, BUT, it retains that TBN longer than some group 2/3, 3+ oils which start much higher!
I can only wonder what the TBN retention is on Motul 300V, which is a high group 5 basestock oil which starts at a TBN of 10.9-11.7!
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Redline handles long drains fine.I know 3 people who have run it out to 10,000 miles with no issues.
I run it out to 10K miles regularly, and I STILL feel like I am changing it too soon!!
As has been said, it may only start with an 8.0-8.8 TBN, BUT, it retains that TBN longer than some group 2/3, 3+ oils which start much higher!
I can only wonder what the TBN retention is on Motul 300V, which is a high group 5 basestock oil which starts at a TBN of 10.9-11.7!
Never tried Motul,I know its a tough oil though.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Redline handles long drains fine.I know 3 people who have run it out to 10,000 miles with no issues.
I run it out to 10K miles regularly, and I STILL feel like I am changing it too soon!!
As has been said, it may only start with an 8.0-8.8 TBN, BUT, it retains that TBN longer than some group 2/3, 3+ oils which start much higher!
I can only wonder what the TBN retention is on Motul 300V, which is a high group 5 basestock oil which starts at a TBN of 10.9-11.7!
[img:center]https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BxnjLrqu5mkvMVBBUWNnQzI2WTA[/img]
CAS: 64742-54-7,
DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), HYDROTREATED HEAVY PARAFFINIC 25
It doesn't look like a heavy 5 to me. Also pour point is -36C...compare that to -45C for RL 5W40. Normal price to pay when using gr3...heavily.
Also long hauls on high ZDDP oil are not as feasible as on low zinc because of the break down of the AW as it's being used.
So while the better high temp oxidation resistance of the gr5 is not putting such a strain on the TBN reserve I don't think the formulator (RL or Motul) had long drains in mind when choosing this base stock.
5W-40 is CJ-4 recommended. I read that as more detergents to deal with higher sulfur fuel and higher soot levels. TBN is at 10 (same as RLI-5W40 CJ-4) for this one according to RL e-mail. This and the 15W-40 would probably be the longest drain oils from RL's line but also the least friction (moly) modified to deal with DPF protection .... further decreasing TBN depletion.
I'm not even sure if TAN/TBN proportion should give you the best picture here since esters really don't go by the same rules. Maybe someone else comment on this from experience with RL. For most oils TBN should not fall lower than TAN to stay in service.
Smth to keep in mind is that good TBN retention can also mean low detergent efficiency...I read that Mg can act like that whereas Ca is more efficient and depletes faster. But I doubt any of these formulators would be using a lot of Mg (for detonation reasons).
CAS: 64742-54-7,
DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM), HYDROTREATED HEAVY PARAFFINIC 25
It doesn't look like a heavy 5 to me. Also pour point is -36C...compare that to -45C for RL 5W40. Normal price to pay when using gr3...heavily.
Also long hauls on high ZDDP oil are not as feasible as on low zinc because of the break down of the AW as it's being used.
So while the better high temp oxidation resistance of the gr5 is not putting such a strain on the TBN reserve I don't think the formulator (RL or Motul) had long drains in mind when choosing this base stock.
5W-40 is CJ-4 recommended. I read that as more detergents to deal with higher sulfur fuel and higher soot levels. TBN is at 10 (same as RLI-5W40 CJ-4) for this one according to RL e-mail. This and the 15W-40 would probably be the longest drain oils from RL's line but also the least friction (moly) modified to deal with DPF protection .... further decreasing TBN depletion.
I'm not even sure if TAN/TBN proportion should give you the best picture here since esters really don't go by the same rules. Maybe someone else comment on this from experience with RL. For most oils TBN should not fall lower than TAN to stay in service.
Smth to keep in mind is that good TBN retention can also mean low detergent efficiency...I read that Mg can act like that whereas Ca is more efficient and depletes faster. But I doubt any of these formulators would be using a lot of Mg (for detonation reasons).
garageman402
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Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Redline handles long drains fine.I know 3 people who have run it out to 10,000 miles with no issues.
I run it out to 10K miles regularly, and I STILL feel like I am changing it too soon!!
As has been said, it may only start with an 8.0-8.8 TBN, BUT, it retains that TBN longer than some group 2/3, 3+ oils which start much higher!
I can only wonder what the TBN retention is on Motul 300V, which is a high group 5 basestock oil which starts at a TBN of 10.9-11.7!
I had a reference sample of Redline 0w-30 tested by SGS-Herguth Lab on 10/14/13, and it showed a TBN of 7.72, TAN starts out at 2.67 though.
After 4331 miles in my 2008 Buick 3.6L V6, TBN was down to 1.51, another run of 3460 miles showed 3.09. Changing out in the 1728-1780 mile range showed 5.23 & 5.27 respectively.
Note that Chevron Supreme 5w-30 run in this engine showed TBN @ 3.94 after 2225 miles, and Chevron Supreme 10w-30 showed 4.88 after 1137 miles.
Redline 0w-30 has large amounts of Zinc (1344), Phos (1330), Calcium (3160), and Moly (608).
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Redline handles long drains fine.I know 3 people who have run it out to 10,000 miles with no issues.
I run it out to 10K miles regularly, and I STILL feel like I am changing it too soon!!
As has been said, it may only start with an 8.0-8.8 TBN, BUT, it retains that TBN longer than some group 2/3, 3+ oils which start much higher!
I can only wonder what the TBN retention is on Motul 300V, which is a high group 5 basestock oil which starts at a TBN of 10.9-11.7!
I had a reference sample of Redline 0w-30 tested by SGS-Herguth Lab on 10/14/13, and it showed a TBN of 7.72, TAN starts out at 2.67 though.
After 4331 miles in my 2008 Buick 3.6L V6, TBN was down to 1.51, another run of 3460 miles showed 3.09. Changing out in the 1728-1780 mile range showed 5.23 & 5.27 respectively.
Note that Chevron Supreme 5w-30 run in this engine showed TBN @ 3.94 after 2225 miles, and Chevron Supreme 10w-30 showed 4.88 after 1137 miles.
Redline 0w-30 has large amounts of Zinc (1344), Phos (1330), Calcium (3160), and Moly (608).
Yes, it is hard to fathom how red Line's products do not have a higher starting/virgin TBN, given the crazy amounts of calcium in it's add/detergent pack.
Maybe the magnesium, and sodium add pack amounts have more to do with an over based TBN than calcium??
Mola??
Maybe the magnesium, and sodium add pack amounts have more to do with an over based TBN than calcium??
Mola??
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