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#3274796 - 02/08/14 12:38 PM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
Colt45ws Offline


Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 7359
Loc: Central Washington
So, I went out and did some testing on the bad trans this morning. Trying different things to see exactly what is going on. I have a hypothesis but I dont really want to post it in case Im wrong. I built it from research on the intertubes and my recent testing seems to be bolstering it..
I will post it anyways because Im trying to get over my fear of being wrong.

So, before when I drove it home, I only had (shuddering at takeoff) 1st and 2nd. 3rd and 4th never happened, it would just stay in 2nd all the way out. This confused me because if it was actually trying to engage OD with no OD band I would end up in neutral since it opens the Forward clutch.
The shift pattern is:
D (1st) Forward clutch on
D (2nd) Intermediate clutch on
D (3rd) Direct clutch on
D (4th) Forward clutch off and OD band on
M (2nd) Forward, Intermediate, and OD Band on (the OD band comes on in manual second to allow for engine braking, 2nd in (D) will just return to near idle)
M (1st) Forward, and Reverse band on (Reverse band on for same reason as OD band in Manual second)
I had checked the fluid and it was within the okay range.

Today I went out and dumped fluid in it until it was overfull.
Partial success. First thing I tried was getting it up to about 20mph, put it in manual 2nd and let off the throttle. The engine returned to idle. So the OD band is shot. That I expected.
Then I took it up to 50mph. Somewhere in there it attempted 3rd. I felt an ever so slight bump, but it again never completed. Better than it was before; it never tried. Once I crossed the OD threshold, it went into neutral. So it tried to go into OD and opened the Forward clutch unlike before I had overfilled it.
Ever since I had installed the trans pan, I have had problems getting the fluid level right. I usually ended up with the level right at or just above the max mark with the trans hot. It seemed like if I set it in the middle of the range, it would be too low when cold.
Recently I changed the Racor filter I have on the cooler line. I recovered what fluid I could, but I still lost about a half a quart. Shouldn't be enough to affect it since I was right at the limit at the start, right?
Well, maybe.
See the cast pan I have has these towers in the middle of the pan that stick up and are supposed to hold the filter up to the transmission. I recently came across I post on the marauder forum of someone who smoked direct and OD (sound familiar?) in his fresh transmission after the aftermarket cast pan he had let the filter fall out of the transmission valve body. He used playdoh and found a pretty large gap between the towers in the pan and the filter.
I dont think its actually fallen out completely; what I think what has happened is that it has dropped out enough to become unsealed and the pump is sucking air at that interface. When I was nearly overfull the problem was mitigated by the fact that point was probably still under fluid most of the time. After I changed the filter and brought the level down to normal it could no longer operate correctly.
I killed it trying to do a WOT 2-3. If you see my shift tables above, you'll note that at that point it has to keep 2 clutches locked and bring on a third. At WOT the pressure commanded is quite high. More pressure = more fluid needed. It ran out of fluid; couldn't build the needed pressure. Boom.
I really really REALLY want to start tearing it apart, but its just too [censored] cold. Im outside a lot at work as it is and I just want to stay inside on the weekends.


Oh! I almost forgot. I got the correct flexplate from a crownvic forum member. I drove it out to me and didnt even charge me for it!


Edited by Colt45ws (02/08/14 12:39 PM)
_________________________
-Colton
2004 Ford Crown Vic LX, 76k "Tank" Back in Service
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI, 160k "Highwayman" (Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42)

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#3274815 - 02/08/14 12:59 PM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
The_Eric Offline


Registered: 03/31/10
Posts: 3150
Loc: Iowa
So, sounds like back to an OE pan?
_________________________
2001 Hyundai Elantra 2.0
1998 Chevy Malibu 2.4
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#3283699 - 02/16/14 03:03 AM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
Colt45ws Offline


Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 7359
Loc: Central Washington
Some parts arrived this week.

Im surprised at all the US parts I got.
New Dayco tensioner because the old one is annoying me. New pair of NTK O2 sensors (seem like theyll be easy to replace with the cats and trans out of the way). Nice Spicer sealed U-joint to put the CVPI yoke back on the aluminum driveshaft and a pair of output shaft seals.
I was supposed to have more, but weather has delayed some of it.
I have Monday and Tuesday off, so I plan to get it up and start disassembly this weekend.
_________________________
-Colton
2004 Ford Crown Vic LX, 76k "Tank" Back in Service
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI, 160k "Highwayman" (Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42)

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#3283713 - 02/16/14 05:06 AM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
Colt45ws Offline


Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 7359
Loc: Central Washington

Enough redundancy? The back is ramps + jack under the pumpkin.
_________________________
-Colton
2004 Ford Crown Vic LX, 76k "Tank" Back in Service
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI, 160k "Highwayman" (Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42)

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#3283877 - 02/16/14 09:29 AM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14259
Loc: Sunny Florida
If the gearing upgrade is part of this swap I would take the driveshaft to the shop for rebalancing and new u-joints.

It's going to be spinning a LOT faster...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3283890 - 02/16/14 09:43 AM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
Colt45ws Offline


Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 7359
Loc: Central Washington
No, unfortunately I had to use the cash for the gear swap on the trans. That's how I was able to pick it up the day after I blew this one, you see.
This aluminum shaft is good to 115 with 3.55s (factory speed limiter in CVPIs). So thats 5300rpm. Reversing it back out and correcting for my slightly larger tires it looks like the limit is 100mph on the dot.
I'd like to find a Alcoa AMMC (Aluminum metal matrix composite) out of a MY2000 CVPI. They had 130 limiter with 3.55s. Looks pretty close to 6000rpm. Little bit better at 114mph.
The AMMC shafts are hard to find, being one year only. I'll probably end up buying a Dynotech driveshaft. They have both aluminium and carbon fiber driveshafts available for the Crown Vic. Ill probably buy whichever will be okay to 7000. Thats 133; more than enough.
_________________________
-Colton
2004 Ford Crown Vic LX, 76k "Tank" Back in Service
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI, 160k "Highwayman" (Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42)

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#3283893 - 02/16/14 09:45 AM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14259
Loc: Sunny Florida
Good, just glad you are aware of the stresses by shorter gears.

Lots of folks find out after they destroy the floor pan after failure!!!

My sympathies on the cash thing, this sort of stuff never happens when you're ready for it...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3283906 - 02/16/14 09:58 AM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: SteveSRT8]
Colt45ws Offline


Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 7359
Loc: Central Washington
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Good, just glad you are aware of the stresses by shorter gears.

Lots of folks find out after they destroy the floor pan after failure!!!

My sympathies on the cash thing, this sort of stuff never happens when you're ready for it...

Yup, I seen pictures where someone put 4.10s in a CV and left the civilian steel shaft in.
I think he was going 95mph and the transmission tailshaft housing exploded. Caused a lot of damage underneath as the thing flopped about until he got it stopped.
Course, the trans was gone too. Not only was the tail housing gone the casing itself was cracked.
Thinking about it, itll probably be worth it to invest in a driveshaft loop. Metco makes one for these cars.


Edited by Colt45ws (02/16/14 10:00 AM)
_________________________
-Colton
2004 Ford Crown Vic LX, 76k "Tank" Back in Service
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI, 160k "Highwayman" (Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42)

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#3283954 - 02/16/14 10:54 AM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25660
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Good, just glad you are aware of the stresses by shorter gears.

Lots of folks find out after they destroy the floor pan after failure!!!

My sympathies on the cash thing, this sort of stuff never happens when you're ready for it...

Yup, I seen pictures where someone put 4.10s in a CV and left the civilian steel shaft in.
I think he was going 95mph and the transmission tailshaft housing exploded. Caused a lot of damage underneath as the thing flopped about until he got it stopped.
Course, the trans was gone too. Not only was the tail housing gone the casing itself was cracked.
Thinking about it, itll probably be worth it to invest in a driveshaft loop. Metco makes one for these cars.


I grenaded a stock Mustang yoke and it blew the tailstock off the transmission. I was probably only doing about 80(km/h) but holy *bleep* did that make a lot of bad noises banging around on top of the H-pipe crzy It marked up the tunnel quite badly.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
05 Forester XT

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#3284045 - 02/16/14 12:29 PM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
Colt45ws Offline


Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 7359
Loc: Central Washington

CVPI shaft with Civi Yoke next to CVPI yoke (longer). I put the standard yoke on the CVPI shaft in order to make it compatible with the standard transmission. I had to use a custom conversion joint. I originally ordered a u-joint for a 2004 CV. But, it was too small for the CVPI shaft. So, I ordered a 1330/1350 conversion joint. That didnt work either because the 1330 caps were too small for the standard yoke. That was a headscratcher. Some sort of custom Ford size. But, I found that the actual bearing diameter of the Ford caps (1340?1335?) was the same as a 1330. So, I took two caps from the first joint I bought and put them on the conversion joint.
Bam, custom conversion.
All that work, and now it has to come back off. Ah, well. Itll be better this way with a nice Spicer sealed joint rather than that Moog junk.
Back on track, I pulled the pan. Well, first, I pulled the drain plug.

Lots of metal flecks. As many as it can hold, anyway. I dropped the pan, and the filter is still firmly attached to the VB, so that eliminates that possibility. Ill have to go deeper to find out why it failed. Oh, yeah, I didnt get a pic, but lots more flecks floating in the bottom of the pan. I put it back on so I have a place to jack from. The manufacturer says thats okay as long as a piece of wood is used underneath.


Edited by Colt45ws (02/16/14 12:30 PM)
_________________________
-Colton
2004 Ford Crown Vic LX, 76k "Tank" Back in Service
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI, 160k "Highwayman" (Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42)

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#3284298 - 02/16/14 04:18 PM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
Colt45ws Offline


Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 7359
Loc: Central Washington
New tool time.

Had trouble getting the nuts off that hold the cats to the exhaust manifold. Finally just went and got an impact driver. I bought it as I am familiar with them; I use them at work all the time. I wanted one with a 3/8" drive and not the 1/4" drive with an adapter, but this was all they had. Its the same gun, but my experience is the 1/4" drive fatigues and eventually explodes. But that's in an industrial setting; constant use. Hopefully Ill get a few years out of it before that happens.
So now I have these out, thanks to it.
_________________________
-Colton
2004 Ford Crown Vic LX, 76k "Tank" Back in Service
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI, 160k "Highwayman" (Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42)

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#3284331 - 02/16/14 04:44 PM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: Colt45ws]
yonyon Offline


Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 3492
Loc: NJ, USA
So, um, after you somehow got the cats unbolted from the manifolds using a cordless electric screwdriver did you then buy a lottery ticket? If not, it might be a good idea to go do that now.


Edited by yonyon (02/16/14 04:46 PM)

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#3284475 - 02/16/14 07:13 PM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: yonyon]
Colt45ws Offline


Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 7359
Loc: Central Washington
Originally Posted By: yonyon
So, um, after you somehow got the cats unbolted from the manifolds using a cordless electric screwdriver did you then buy a lottery ticket? If not, it might be a good idea to go do that now.

lol, its an impact. Mighty handy and more powerful than you would think. Like 133ft/lbs. I said that the 1/4 drive end on it tends to explode eventually. I wasnt kidding. I use them at work all the time and deal with the aftermath of untrained children (adults) that think giving it full gas on a 3/8" bolt is OK.
Anyway, so Im currently at a stop because the crossmember is giving me trouble. Yeah, Im that far. Its the only thing keeping me from pulling it. The fit on the 03+ Panthers is REALLY tight. I think the pockets on the frame that it sits in are way undersized and they just force it in there when it is built. what makes it worse is there really isnt anyplace to leverage off of that is sturdy enough. Ive got my crowbarr out, but it isnt really helping. Got my mallet too, but its not helping much because theres no room above to get a swing on it. Ive dropped it about 1/2" on one side and about 1/4" on the other.
_________________________
-Colton
2004 Ford Crown Vic LX, 76k "Tank" Back in Service
2002 Ford Crown Vic PI, 160k "Highwayman" (Ex-Kootenai County, ID Unit #42)

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#3284813 - 02/17/14 06:19 AM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: OVERKILL]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14259
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Good, just glad you are aware of the stresses by shorter gears.

Lots of folks find out after they destroy the floor pan after failure!!!

My sympathies on the cash thing, this sort of stuff never happens when you're ready for it...

Yup, I seen pictures where someone put 4.10s in a CV and left the civilian steel shaft in.
I think he was going 95mph and the transmission tailshaft housing exploded. Caused a lot of damage underneath as the thing flopped about until he got it stopped.
Course, the trans was gone too. Not only was the tail housing gone the casing itself was cracked.
Thinking about it, itll probably be worth it to invest in a driveshaft loop. Metco makes one for these cars.


I grenaded a stock Mustang yoke and it blew the tailstock off the transmission. I was probably only doing about 80(km/h) but holy *bleep* did that make a lot of bad noises banging around on top of the H-pipe crzy It marked up the tunnel quite badly.


Mine came right through the floorboard in a 63 cadillac! Ripped the back seat to shreds and would have been a REAL problem for anyone back there!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

Top
#3284947 - 02/17/14 09:05 AM Re: Colt45's Trans swap chronicles [Re: SteveSRT8]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25660
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Good, just glad you are aware of the stresses by shorter gears.

Lots of folks find out after they destroy the floor pan after failure!!!

My sympathies on the cash thing, this sort of stuff never happens when you're ready for it...

Yup, I seen pictures where someone put 4.10s in a CV and left the civilian steel shaft in.
I think he was going 95mph and the transmission tailshaft housing exploded. Caused a lot of damage underneath as the thing flopped about until he got it stopped.
Course, the trans was gone too. Not only was the tail housing gone the casing itself was cracked.
Thinking about it, itll probably be worth it to invest in a driveshaft loop. Metco makes one for these cars.


I grenaded a stock Mustang yoke and it blew the tailstock off the transmission. I was probably only doing about 80(km/h) but holy *bleep* did that make a lot of bad noises banging around on top of the H-pipe crzy It marked up the tunnel quite badly.


Mine came right through the floorboard in a 63 cadillac! Ripped the back seat to shreds and would have been a REAL problem for anyone back there!


WOW!! shocked
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
05 Forester XT

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