Recent Topics
10/21-11/17 AutoZone Ad
by tenderloin
10/20/14 11:29 PM
Digital Pop Star Round 2: Hatsune Miku in 'Murrica
by Nick R
10/20/14 10:33 PM
Driving on a metal grate
by y_p_w
10/20/14 10:11 PM
Seem like antique old school guy dont give a rat .
by MetalSlug
10/20/14 09:52 PM
lubegard power care 2 stroke oil and reconditioner
by fixit301
10/20/14 09:08 PM
Home Solar Electric
by expat
10/20/14 07:57 PM
Cost to service drum brakes?
by Hollow
10/20/14 07:51 PM
Anybody spraying Fluid Film regularly?
by bullwinkle
10/20/14 05:49 PM
Castrol Edge Syntec 0W-20, 0W-30 BC, 0W-40 GC
by SLO_Town
10/20/14 05:43 PM
TGMO 0w20 6,074m 25,206m (2011 Tacoma)
by JerryBob
10/20/14 05:22 PM
Anyone used 0w-30 in a Ford 4.0 V6 ?
by 123Saab
10/20/14 04:22 PM
Set my mind at ease, please
by faramir9
10/20/14 03:51 PM
Newest Members
l1tech, greyghost, banderso, ovidiu, joeymaker
51648 Registered Users
Who's Online
44 registered (1kickbuttranger, 123Saab, Anduril, asiancivicmaniac, 5 invisible), 1068 Guests and 206 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51648 Members
64 Forums
220984 Topics
3492726 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#326804 - 06/16/04 07:55 AM Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
Baveux Offline


Registered: 05/25/03
Posts: 444
Loc: St-Eustache , Québec , Canada
I am not trolling, I'm just trying to understand the reason good or not for peoples badmouthing this product from Allied Signal.

1- I don't think anybody is selling more oil filter than Fram.

2- Fram is the makers of the filters available at Honda, Penzoil, Quaker states, and God know who put their name on that filter

3- Millions of filters sold each and every years and no real or repetitive problem noted ,in this day and age if a filter company would screw up we would have know by now.

4- They meet OEM requirment and equal or exceed new car warranty.

5- Yes they look cheaper, and they are cheaper too, not by a lot but at least 2 to 4 dollars cheaper than a Delco or Wix.

6- They are easy to get, available everywhere.

7- I am not an engineer, but even if the construction is questionnable for some people here the filter seems to do the job.

8- If the bypass valve is so poor that the oil bypass the filter constantly, its reasonable to beleive that no filter at all will do the same job.No filtration and good flow is maybe the way to go.

9- I use Delco filter, and Wix because of you guys but I wonder if most of the story about Fram are just mouth to mouth bashing with no proof other that I met a guy who know a guy ....

10- Lots of peoples are shaking their head seing somebody at wal-mart or Canadian tire with their cart full of Fram filter, and I really want to know what is wrong with their filter.

No ear say , no opinion, no perception, what I need is factual evidence that you will diminish the life expectancy of an engine by using this product.And no, you cannot find a filter here in Canada at better price. So the you can get better filter for the same money isn't working here. [Wink]

Top
#326805 - 06/16/04 08:08 AM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
ekpolk Offline
The Regenerator


Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 8881
Loc: Pensacola FL
Well, pretty much everything you get here, well maybe 95%, is going to be hearsay, period. I have seen the cardboard end caps with the filter media glued to the cardboard. FRAM says that's sufficient, but it's hard to beleive, especially when you see the metal ones. I've also heard about the sufficiently strong cardboard end caps coming apart and damaging or destroying the engine (ooops, I guess that's hearsay...). On the other hand, I used the orange can of death on my 88 Civic for years with no problems observed, so who knows. To me, "saving" $5-8 by getting a FRAM is false economy, especially when I can tell by looking and by feeling the greater heft of a Mobil-1 or K&N filter that they are better made products. And now I will speculate: my gut tells me that in many (most?) instances, the FRAM will work fine, it's when your engine suddenly generates excess heat, pressure, or both, that the other filters, with what I feel is a greater margin for error, will prove their worth.

Top
#326806 - 06/16/04 08:58 AM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
Bill Kapaun Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Oregon
Allied Signal sold FRAM to Honeywell.

You didn't mention the ADBV, which IMO, is what sucks the most about FRAM.
Cardboard end caps don't bother me, since the media is made out of paper anyway.
It was that LONG pause for the oil light to go out on my first start in the morning, compared to "good" filters that caused me to switch.

Top
#326807 - 06/16/04 09:02 AM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46680
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
My only real problem with Fram is the ADBV on certain filters. It is vastly inferior to the OEM Mann for example.

Beleive me I don't think more money = better...I don't use Amsoil oil filters.

My philosophy was gained here: A full flow oil filter is pretty much an emergency chunk catcher.

I use Mann OEM and Motorcraft with Amsoil motor oil. No issues.

Top
#326808 - 06/16/04 09:27 AM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
jthorner Offline


Registered: 07/11/03
Posts: 1130
Loc: California
Most of the negative opinions of Fram are based on physical construction analysis as compared to other filters. People have done much work on this, taken pictures, posted to the 'net etc.

If you don't find that data compelling, fine, ignore it.

Nobody has the responsibility to convince you.

Your money, your choices.

quote:
A fool can ask more questions than the wisest can answer.
--- Johnathan Swift


Top
#326809 - 06/16/04 04:20 PM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
T-Keith Offline


Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 4865
Loc: MN
First please read a few of my posts on this issue and my site: http://www.lesabret.com/filters/filter.html You have missed some key issues.

To respond to your reasoning.

1. I'd be willing to bet Champion and Purolator sell just as many, they just sell under multiple brands,
Fram has less rebadges.

2. Not sure what you mean here, yes Fram has some rebadges, but not many compared to others.

3. This is not true, I have seen many problems occur, most people just never realize when a filter is not working. Fram has redesigned several of their filters over the years due to problems. The somewhat recent Cummins filter problem is one example.

4. Yes they do, but what does this mean? Do we know how strict these standards are? Do you want something that meets a minium, or the best possible?

5. They are the same price as AC-delco, purolator and other more respected brands, they are more expensive than many other good brands(supertech, stp, ect)

6. Your right, they almost have a monopoly in some areas. Is this somthing you want to support?

7. For some people it does the job, but aren't we all anal-retentive oil freaks here. [Wink]

8. I'm not sure how no filteration can be a good idea.

9. There have been pictures posted, people have measured pore sizes, flow rates, area, construction, ect. I see how you can say it's heresay. [I dont know]

10. Please read the writeups available, they have plenty of info on the ups and downs of all the different filters.

http://www.lesabret.com/filters/filter.html
http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/index.htm

-T

Top
#326810 - 06/16/04 05:05 PM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
MarkC Offline


Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 9461
Loc: Not Seattle, but close.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Kapaun:
[QB] Allied Signal sold FRAM to Honeywell.

Actually, Allied Signal and Honeywell are the same company these days, Allied Signal having bought Honewyell a few years back, and keeping the name.

Top
#326811 - 06/16/04 06:44 PM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
tmorris1 Offline


Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 2038
Loc: MN
quote:
Yes they look cheaper, and they are cheaper too, not by a lot but at least 2 to 4 dollars cheaper than a Delco or Wix
The Delcos that I buy are only about $3.50 which is about the same price as a Fram. I would guess that they do the job, but why use them when there are better filters for the same money or even cheaper as in the SuperTech.

Top
#326812 - 06/16/04 06:59 PM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
Baveux Offline


Registered: 05/25/03
Posts: 444
Loc: St-Eustache , Québec , Canada
quote:
Originally posted by T-Keith:
First please read a few of my posts on this issue and my site: http://www.lesabret.com/filters/filter.html You have missed some key issues.

To respond to your reasoning.

1. I'd be willing to bet Champion and Purolator sell just as many, they just sell under multiple brands,
Fram has less rebadges.

2. Not sure what you mean here, yes Fram has some rebadges, but not many compared to others.

3. This is not true, I have seen many problems occur, most people just never realize when a filter is not working. Fram has redesigned several of their filters over the years due to problems. The somewhat recent Cummins filter problem is one example.

4. Yes they do, but what does this mean? Do we know how strict these standards are? Do you want something that meets a minium, or the best possible?

5. They are the same price as AC-delco, purolator and other more respected brands, they are more expensive than many other good brands(supertech, stp, ect)

6. Your right, they almost have a monopoly in some areas. Is this somthing you want to support?

7. For some people it does the job, but aren't we all anal-retentive oil freaks here. [Wink]

8. I'm not sure how no filteration can be a good idea.

9. There have been pictures posted, people have measured pore sizes, flow rates, area, construction, ect. I see how you can say it's heresay. [I dont know]

10. Please read the writeups available, they have plenty of info on the ups and downs of all the different filters.

http://www.lesabret.com/filters/filter.html
http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/index.htm

-T

1- I can't argue with you, I have no number to support what I am saying but I don't beleive that is the case in Canada, most of what we see here is Fram or clone

2-I meant that Pennzoil,QS and some other have enough confidence in Fram to put their name on it.

3- I give you the Cummings issue. But if a filter is a real necessity and if many Fram quit working dont you think that we would see more engine failure caused by FRam ?

4- Minimum standard are all you need I think since its impossible to reach the perfect filtration without going through extensive modification, and again, this extend the life of the oil more than anything else.But I understand that you can always do better.

5- Sorry but here the Fram are cheaper, 3.43 for a PF 47 , Delco 7.31, Carquest ( wix blue 5.83)I agree that its not a uge difference maybe cheap for the piece of mind of some guy, but do we really need to spend more than we have too? No Supertec here.

6- Monopoly yup, but I also realised that a lot of product bashing over the internet is aim toward the biggest company or corporation. We like to beat the stronger one, and with reason sometime.But I really dont think that you can stay at the top for very long if you dont perform.

7- Anal-retentive guys here [Roll Eyes] I haven't seen one here [LOL!]

But if we look at the perspective its like you have 4500 smart guys and billions of peoples putting their engine at risk.

8- Filtration is important to a point, no need to catch everything , you just need to catch the harmfull particule.More than that is overkill and restrict the oil flow.

9- The car manufacturer did all that research and conclude to a minimum requirement, this is what Fram do, meets the OEM spec.After that the sky is the limit.

10- T-Keith , have a great day and thanks for sharing your opinion, and yes I am going back to read some more post ...

Top
#326813 - 06/16/04 08:26 PM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
Schultz Offline


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 159
Loc: MI
I have no problem using the Fram, In fact I think the Tough Guard is one of the better filters out there, along with AC and Pure 1. OK the ADBV may or may not be sub par, but of the Ford Filters the Tough Guard is the only one to have a screen over their bypass valve, so when its in bypass mode which all filters will see, no large stuff is going into the oil stream.

Reguarding the paper end caps, who cares, I don't. The media is paper base, so whats wrong with the end caps being paper base? The metal endcaps really aren't doing much other than holding the potting material for the pleat pack. You defintely don't need metal for excessive pressure, becuase all filters will be bypassed at relitivly low <30 psi pressures anyway. Besides if the filter did see those deta p's the filter media would tear away from the potting material reguardless if it were metal or paper. Also the can doens't need to be extra thick to withstand 250 psi since it will never see those pressures.

One last thing, the Frams have tested very good reguarding filtration with Tough Guard be one of the best and that's got to count for something. See Greese Oil filter study.

Top
#326814 - 06/16/04 08:57 PM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
Whimsey Offline


Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 3067
Loc: The Garden State
I used Fram's for years. I "upgraded" to Fram from STP & Lee [Roll Eyes] . For my truck their ADBV was the worst. It never dawned on me that the filter was the cause of my painfully loud dry starts, (Pre-BITOG days [Frown] ). I "accidently" had to use a Motorcraft because they were all out of Fram's. Wow! wouldn't you know no more dry starts [Eek!] . Live and learn. I also had several Fram's swell up and almost burst on me. And unless you buy the Fram's when they have sales they are more expensive than the Motorcrafts. Other people love them though [I dont know] .

Whimsey

Top
#326815 - 06/17/04 09:00 AM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
T-Keith Offline


Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 4865
Loc: MN
Baveux, your questions are very welcome. If someone doesn't bring up the other side of the issue, there isn't much of an arguement. If a site just shows a picture of a Fram filter and says it's bad because it has cardboard end caps, that's not much of an arguement. I read some of the earlier filter studies on the net, and wanted to know more, so I cut apart my own filters. I found that the cardboard end caps weren't the biggest issue that I had with their filters.

I think you'll find several viewpoints on this site, many more informed than the average consumer.

[Cheers!]

-T

Top
#326816 - 06/17/04 09:02 AM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
jsharp Offline


Registered: 12/25/02
Posts: 3585
Loc: Outside smalltown, IL
It's easy to pass on purchasing Fram. I can buy a Motorcraft, ST, or any number of other brands for the same or less money and get a better filter. So why would I bother with Fram??

Top
#326817 - 06/17/04 09:03 AM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
T-Keith Offline


Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 4865
Loc: MN
I'm suprised at your prices too. Frams are around $3 here. Motorcraft, AC delco , STP, ST, Purolators and many others can be found for less.

-T

Top
#326818 - 06/16/04 10:23 PM Re: Fram...the underdog !! for car oil filters
ekpolk Offline
The Regenerator


Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 8881
Loc: Pensacola FL
quote:
Originally posted by Schultz:

Reguarding the paper end caps, who cares, I don't. The media is paper base, so whats wrong with the end caps being paper base? The metal endcaps really aren't doing much other than holding the potting material for the pleat pack. You defintely don't need metal for excessive pressure, becuase all filters will be bypassed at relitivly low <30 psi pressures anyway. Besides if the filter did see those deta p's the filter media would tear away from the potting material reguardless if it were metal or paper. Also the can doens't need to be extra thick to withstand 250 psi since it will never see those pressures.

There are a couple problems I see with your logic here. First, oil is supposed to go through the filtration medium; it's not supposed to go through the end caps. Therefore, the fact that the medium is paper does not make it OK for the end caps to be cardboard. Second, the real issue is ability to survive extremes versus holding up in normal operation. Back when I had a Civic, my local dealer refused to install Frams because of incidents in which the paper end caps had disintegrated and the resulting filter debris had damaged or destroyed the engine involved. Finally, as to can strength, would you really rather have one that is just barely strong enough? Especially when you can have a better assembled, stronger one for the same price or an insignificantly higher price (note Whimsey's experience of swelling Fram filters, described above). For me, the issue isn't really that Fram isn't serviceable, it's that the other makers provide a much more robust product for about the same price. No more Frams for me.

[ June 17, 2004, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >