Recent Topics
$15 gallons of redline
by eljefino
08/29/14 09:09 PM
$10 rebate - Pennzoil Full Synthetic
by babbittd
08/29/14 08:58 PM
Good Samaritan
by Merkava_4
08/29/14 08:54 PM
repair or replace exterior door
by ram_man
08/29/14 07:43 PM
Headlight restore job, Or are they new?
by Realtech214
08/29/14 06:43 PM
Purolator Synthetic oil filters on sale at Kmart
by tommygunn
08/29/14 06:43 PM
UOA: Mercon LV
by buck91
08/29/14 04:52 PM
Rough idle on cold start
by Falcon_LS
08/29/14 04:27 PM
Job Re-assignment
by Deltona_Dave
08/29/14 04:16 PM
Amsoil ASM 0w-20, 7,780: '07 Accord 82,257 miles
by Cardiobuck
08/29/14 04:12 PM
Last ditch fix - Additives for slipping automatic
by spavel6
08/29/14 03:21 PM
Midwest LSA Expo Next Week
by LoneRanger
08/29/14 02:27 PM
Newest Members
STELIOKONTOS, boosterboy, Streetside, toby7878, krazy
51138 Registered Users
Who's Online
103 registered (007Poke, 05LGTLtd, 1SSW, 97f150, 2010_FX4, 10 invisible), 1622 Guests and 201 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51138 Members
64 Forums
218490 Topics
3445373 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 4 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#3264149 - 01/29/14 06:21 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
MikeySoft Offline


Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 381
Loc: Boston, MA
Variable Cylinder Management

I believe pre 2013 Accords V6 could run on 6, 4 or 3 cylinders depending on load.
2013 and newer run on 6 or 3 cylinders.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on the number of cylinders.
_________________________
2013 Honda Accord I4 EX-L
UOAs for Old 2003 Accord

Top
#3264322 - 01/29/14 09:03 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Autodarken Offline


Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Nice report, but why would you run Mobil 1 to only 5K? Any conventional could do the same thing.


The Honda V6 VCM is known to be very hard on oil and following the MM is considered to be bad advice. Plus 5k is a safe OCI for this engine easy to remember and oil is very cheap!


Not at all true...but you have to do what you feel good about.

Top
#3264636 - 01/30/14 08:58 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Autodarken]
DuckRyder Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 1432
Loc: Atlanta
The engine is hard on oil under certain conditions. Those conditions are well documented up to and including a class action lawsuit.
_________________________
Robert
  • 1996 Acura 3.5RL
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100
  • 2012 Volkswagen Jetta TDi

Top
#3264761 - 01/30/14 10:51 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: DuckRyder]
threeputtpar Offline


Registered: 08/04/11
Posts: 1481
Loc: Appleton, WI
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
The engine is hard on oil under certain conditions. Those conditions are well documented up to and including a class action lawsuit.


I added the bold, as this is a very telling non-admission style admission from Honda USA. Yes, the settlement has not been made final yet, but it eventually will and we will all have extended warranties for these oil consumption issues.
_________________________
2013 Honda Odyssey Touring Elite - QSUD 5W-30 and Bosch 3323 (living on the edge!)
2003 Audi A6 2.7t - M1 0W-40 and Champ PH453 (RockAuto closeout)

Top
#3264766 - 01/30/14 11:05 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: dnewton3]
threeputtpar Offline


Registered: 08/04/11
Posts: 1481
Loc: Appleton, WI
dnewton3 -

I know what point you are trying to make, which I agree with. But you also throw ROI into your argument, and that is where my thoughts deviate from yours.

What type of ROI can a single individual expect in this situation? Let's say that I decide to pony up the cash to do a full blown study on my new Odyssey exploring the maximum OCI for HGMO 0W-20. I'm just ballparking, but could it possibly cost me somewhere in the $5k range if I take it out to 150k miles, which I think is the generally accepted engineered life on a vehicle drivetrain?

Now, let's say that the maximum OCI was determined to be 7.5k miles per my study. That's just over 13 OCs vs 20 if I just arbitraily chose to go with 5k intervals. My local dealer charges $50 for the OC, so the difference would be $350 over the 150k mile study. Even if my study cost me $500, the ROI is still in the negative.

Even if there were only a few forum documented cases of VCM harming an engine at MM intervals, and even if then there was no class action lawsuit, I still see it as at least prudent to protect my $40k van by spending an additional $200 over its life (because I buy oils at reduced prices and do the work myself) to greatly reduce the likelyhood of my particular vehicle experiencing any problems.

It's not always about the science behind the principle, but very often it's the actual cash outlays in real life that determine the pallatable interval. And this is coming from an accountant that's also infatuated with the science behind the testing and sampling process. If money was no object to me, I wouldn't hesitate to be the guinea pig to put this to the test as I would have so much fun doing it.
_________________________
2013 Honda Odyssey Touring Elite - QSUD 5W-30 and Bosch 3323 (living on the edge!)
2003 Audi A6 2.7t - M1 0W-40 and Champ PH453 (RockAuto closeout)

Top
#3264939 - 01/30/14 02:09 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5567
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I don't disagree with all that you have pointed out. ROI has to be of merit in the over all plan. I get that. But just using a product (any product) as a swag is just that and nothing more. How does the OP know, for sure, that 5k miles isn't too far, even for M1? How does anyone protect an investment, if zero markers are defined and met? You either know, or guess; there is no in-between.

What I contend is that data is out there, if you seek it. From what I've seen, macro data is much more useful that micro data in cases like this. One may not need pay for a UOA, but gather data from others and look for markers.

The other thing that often bugs me, and I call out with regularity, is when folks praise something, but cannot offer any clarification as to why they do so, other than to mimic marketing hype and internet mythology.

So the OP likes his M1; fine by me. But don't claim it's doing a great job, when you cannot define what that means relative to the concern you have. If it's sludge you fear, how does this UOA show it's being kept at bay? If M1 is doing such a great job, then show me the marker that convinces one of that fact. Don't brag on a UOA, or a fluid, and then not be able to articulately describe WHY you believe it to be so. Don't claim to use a product to avoid a problem, and then not be able to define how you track the onset and monitor it.

That's all I ask for; if you make a claim (whomever "you" may be in any given thread) be prepared to back it up with facts. Otherwise, just admit it's an opinion only, based upon emotion, and move on.

If someone said to me "Dave - I cannot prove it; I just like it; it makes me happy to satisfy an emotion ...", how can I argue with that?
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#3264979 - 01/30/14 03:03 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
BobThe Offline


Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 121
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
But what I think the purpose of the UOA from the OP was to say nothing more than "Yep, it looked to do the job at the OCI I chose" and nothing more. Meaning that everything looked normal on the report for the OCI. Next time maybe he extends it out a little further and see what it does to the numbers...or keep it the same and see if the numbers stay the same...or never run another report since he see's his metals trending down.
_________________________
13 Mustang GT Premium 6MT - MC SemiSyn 5W20 FL500S
13 Armada Platinum 4X4 PP 5W30 XG7317
87 300ZX Turbo T6 5w40 XG3682
85 Yamaha XV1000 T6 5w40

Top
#3265521 - 01/31/14 02:41 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Autodarken]
Chris B. Offline


Registered: 03/16/03
Posts: 2871
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Autodarken
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Nice report, but why would you run Mobil 1 to only 5K? Any conventional could do the same thing.


The Honda V6 VCM is known to be very hard on oil and following the MM is considered to be bad advice. Plus 5k is a safe OCI for this engine easy to remember and oil is very cheap!


Not at all true...but you have to do what you feel good about.


Really? Guess you don't spend much time on here or other car forums. VCM problems and this engine being hard on oil is well documented.

Top
#3265526 - 01/31/14 03:08 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: dnewton3]
Chris B. Offline


Registered: 03/16/03
Posts: 2871
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I don't disagree with all that you have pointed out. ROI has to be of merit in the over all plan. I get that. But just using a product (any product) as a swag is just that and nothing more. How does the OP know, for sure, that 5k miles isn't too far, even for M1? How does anyone protect an investment, if zero markers are defined and met? You either know, or guess; there is no in-between.

What I contend is that data is out there, if you seek it. From what I've seen, macro data is much more useful that micro data in cases like this. One may not need pay for a UOA, but gather data from others and look for markers.

The other thing that often bugs me, and I call out with regularity, is when folks praise something, but cannot offer any clarification as to why they do so, other than to mimic marketing hype and internet mythology.

So the OP likes his M1; fine by me. But don't claim it's doing a great job, when you cannot define what that means relative to the concern you have. If it's sludge you fear, how does this UOA show it's being kept at bay? If M1 is doing such a great job, then show me the marker that convinces one of that fact. Don't brag on a UOA, or a fluid, and then not be able to articulately describe WHY you believe it to be so. Don't claim to use a product to avoid a problem, and then not be able to define how you track the onset and monitor it.

That's all I ask for; if you make a claim (whomever "you" may be in any given thread) be prepared to back it up with facts. Otherwise, just admit it's an opinion only, based upon emotion, and move on.

If someone said to me "Dave - I cannot prove it; I just like it; it makes me happy to satisfy an emotion ...", how can I argue with that?


Like I said before and it is a fact that these engines don't do well on conventional oil going by the MM because it takes 7,000 miles at a minimum for the MM to hit 15%. The oil sludges by then and starts the build up. This is not my opinion and is well documented. My UOA shows steady wear trending down and low insolubles. I have a scope and can see pretty deep through the fill hole and it is spotless in this engine with no sign of sludge or oil problems. So yes, M1 is doing a good job and this is fact not some made up "emotion" to make me feel better.
Now any full syn will work at 5,000 miles. There are reports(lots of them) where folks are having problem even with full syn going by the MM. Not one report that I can find where owners had problems using a 5,000 mile OCI. Some where between 5k and 7k is where this engine starts to have problems based on what owners are reporting.
This is not made up feel good [censored] like you are claiming. It is real world findings and the best evidence we have on what is best for these VCM engines. Sorry this is not in the form you want but is doesn't change the above facts and it is what it is.

Top
#3265529 - 01/31/14 03:28 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
DragRace Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 2327
Loc: 1/4 Mile Track
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I don't disagree with all that you have pointed out. ROI has to be of merit in the over all plan. I get that. But just using a product (any product) as a swag is just that and nothing more. How does the OP know, for sure, that 5k miles isn't too far, even for M1? How does anyone protect an investment, if zero markers are defined and met? You either know, or guess; there is no in-between.

What I contend is that data is out there, if you seek it. From what I've seen, macro data is much more useful that micro data in cases like this. One may not need pay for a UOA, but gather data from others and look for markers.

The other thing that often bugs me, and I call out with regularity, is when folks praise something, but cannot offer any clarification as to why they do so, other than to mimic marketing hype and internet mythology.

So the OP likes his M1; fine by me. But don't claim it's doing a great job, when you cannot define what that means relative to the concern you have. If it's sludge you fear, how does this UOA show it's being kept at bay? If M1 is doing such a great job, then show me the marker that convinces one of that fact. Don't brag on a UOA, or a fluid, and then not be able to articulately describe WHY you believe it to be so. Don't claim to use a product to avoid a problem, and then not be able to define how you track the onset and monitor it.

That's all I ask for; if you make a claim (whomever "you" may be in any given thread) be prepared to back it up with facts. Otherwise, just admit it's an opinion only, based upon emotion, and move on.

If someone said to me "Dave - I cannot prove it; I just like it; it makes me happy to satisfy an emotion ...", how can I argue with that?


Like I said before and it is a fact that these engines don't do well on conventional oil going by the MM because it takes 7,000 miles at a minimum for the MM to hit 15%. The oil sludges by then and starts the build up. This is not my opinion and is well documented. My UOA shows steady wear trending down and low insolubles. I have a scope and can see pretty deep through the fill hole and it is spotless in this engine with no sign of sludge or oil problems. So yes, M1 is doing a good job and this is fact not some made up "emotion" to make me feel better.
Now any full syn will work at 5,000 miles. There are reports(lots of them) where folks are having problem even with full syn going by the MM. Not one report that I can find where owners had problems using a 5,000 mile OCI. Some where between 5k and 7k is where this engine starts to have problems based on what owners are reporting.
This is not made up feel good [censored] like you are claiming. It is real world findings and the best evidence we have on what is best for these VCM engines. Sorry this is not in the form you want but is doesn't change the above facts and it is what it is.


approved Well said Chris!

Top
#3265569 - 01/31/14 06:21 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: MikeySoft]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9498
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: MikeySoft
Variable Cylinder Management

I believe pre 2013 Accords V6 could run on 6, 4 or 3 cylinders depending on load.
2013 and newer run on 6 or 3 cylinders.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on the number of cylinders.


The older 3.5 iVTEC ones ran on 6 or 3 thats what causes the sludge/deposit/varnish issues.
The 08 IIRC and later had ring problems.

This is from an 05 with verified 7500 mi OCI with synthetic.



Front head (looking directly at engine from the front) the one that does all the work when VCM is active.



The rear head with the VCM mechanism, it doesn't get as hot but varnish sticks everything.



The valve that operates the VCM, oil pressure controlled and stuck with varnish.



The oil filter pad which has a direct feed to the VCM



Oil pan
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#3265636 - 01/31/14 07:49 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Brybo86 Offline


Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 649
Loc: Chicago, IL
So would Dave rather have you use dino, take it to 10k, get some uoa's to prove the oil is shot,
then have you use m1 to 10k. when it show signs of sludging he will say, well now you know,
because oil that looks like dried tar isn't necessarily bad, what's the standard deviation of xyz wear element? if you dont know the exact numbers for each element.....blah blah blah

I'll admit that "massive waste“ statement had me laughing harder than I have in weeks

What do you say when cleaning out your oil drain pan? oh beep this is massive waste I should get a uoa on this,maybe 50 to establish trends of how much dust gets blown into the pan between oil changes,

serious question though Dave.. if all that matters is wear do you get UOA's on your lawn mower, snowblower, etc,

What if someone puts m1 in their push mower ... without UOA... gasp! massive waste!
I personally put leftovers in my mower of whatever drops are leftover from random oil changes. do I have a uoa? no. this is of course unacceptable to you I'm sure but really with this rambling post I want one honest answer....

Why do you have to be so rude and condescending to Chris for simply posting some background info and UOA info about his car? Judging by your other posts which are typically very similar... You THRIVE on this sort of bull. Making people feel like idiots for doing something that they believe is the best thing for their car...? So when you succeed in shutting everyone up, when will you be able to post your seething massive waste garbage?

Chris thanks for posting this about your car, it was informative for me and I'm sure for many here, obviously Dave knows everything , since that's the case Mb he should just stick to writing articles on normalcy?
_________________________
08 Honda Accord EX-L 2.4L Amsoil 0w20 ASM w/EA15K13 98k
01 Kymco People 50
95 Lexus LS400 172k
95 Yamaha Jog
86 Kawasaki 454Ltd Rotella 15w40

Top
#3265689 - 01/31/14 08:41 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Schmoe Offline


Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 6373
Loc: Oklahoma
Wow....those pictures are horrid.....I got a V6 on the accord...glad it's not VCM...however....probably gearing up to buy another one next year and this subject will surely be on my mind. Will it make me chose something other than a Honda? No, but I'll probably change my 12K OCI and change it out sooner. GREAT INFORMATION...sure looks like in those pictures that the oil got fried.
_________________________
01 Supercrew Lariat 4X4
06 Accord EX V6
10 CRV EX-L
(traded 02 Accord EX V6 @ 208K miles for)
14 CRV EX-L
(traded 10 CRV for)


Top
#3265730 - 01/31/14 09:24 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Schmoe]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9498
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Thats the point they stop running on all cylinders. The day before that engine was running fine on all 6, it fell into eco mode and wouldn't come out of it.
My question is how would a UOA indicate this?

This is how it looked after cleaning, it runs great and staying clean on 5K synthetic OCI.









_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#3265866 - 01/31/14 12:20 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5567
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
So, ChrisB, you say wear is trending down. Fine. The engine looks good inside. Fine. Are you indicating that these tools (UOAs and physical observations) cannot be applied to conventional lubes?

Further, I must presume by now you have zero idea of what markers may indicate the onset of the issue; you have repeatedly sidestepped any affirmation of such.

Here's where it matters; it's in the ROI math.

If syn can take you to 5k miles, and dino could take you to the same condition at 4k miles, it's simply cheaper to OCI more often with dino than syn. Granted, those are values that are SWAG'd, but that does not seem to bother you anyway.

You have no idea how to quanitify the OCI; you repeatedly insist on some arbitrary value being good for syn, but have no idea whatsoever what value may be good for dino. You say that wear metals and observations are proof that 5k miles is OK for syn; can you not apply that same system to dino and gander at the results?

Naw - you're a dead set syn junkie. I should know; I was one once upon a time, too. But then I learned how to anayze and interpret, and leave hype and rhetoric in the past.

Now, I am NOT saying that syns are a bad choice here. I'm saying you have no idea how to judge the relative performance of one lube to another, and intead apply your logic in a one-sided formula.

Either the UOA can predict the onset, or it cannot. If it can, you should be able to use that tool to find the limit for any type lube. Then, apply cost analysis to see which is cheaper to assure that level of desired protection. If the UOA cannot prove out the onset condition, they you're grasping at theortical straws.

But instead, you insist on a one-way calcuation, where syn is presumed a winner not because you can prove it, but because you want it.

I am not denying that the engine family may have an issue. I'll accept that as a "known". What I don't see any evidence of is that you have any ability to accurately predict an OCI for ANY lube; you've not shown anything but a guess. And you won't even apply that same courtesy of a guess to an alternative.

Your UOA shows that the syn did nothing statistically significant. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise, that's a fact you cannot change. Your use of the UOA is that of a toy, not a tool; not unlike a LARGE contingent of other BITOGers.

Not a problem; I wish you the best. Have a good weekend.



Edited by dnewton3 (01/31/14 12:23 PM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
Page 4 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >