E-85. I think I'm a convert.

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Fair is such an ill defined term. That's why I simply suggest equal percentages.

If the taxman takes the same relative size cut from everyone, I see that as far more "fair" than taking differing percentages from different folks.

But the guy making poverty wages, not paying any taxes probably doesn't want this.

Neither does the guy who has dividend income, paying no payroll taxes and few if any income taxes.
 
Exactly how are you "modifying as needed to provide adequate fuel flow"?

Originally Posted By: shovel
I burn E85 in my not-factory-"flex" vehicle whenever possible. Have done so with every vehicle I've owned since E85 became available; modifying as needed to provide adequate fuel flow.

Have fun hatin', haters. B)
 
I stopped at a station that sells a variety of FLEX-FUEL, E-10, 15, 20, 30, and 85. The pump selector indicator I used was blank... I guess the electronic display wasn't working. I didn't realize this station was selling all of these fuel grades until I had pumped in about $15. I stopped there and later I went to the web site for this company to find out about I had put into my car.

They had links that claim fuel economy goes UP with ethanol blends between 20 and 30% ethanol.

I don't know exactly what to believe. I think ethanol helps cool a engine and boosts octane and is safer than MTFB and it definitely props up the price of corn.

I think we should be able to use 100% gas, too, while the EPA is pushing us all into using E-10 all the time whether we like it or not.


Here's the link to the web site I was talking about:


http://www.zarcousa.com/americanfuels/
 
I can live with lower mpg using E85, because the actual cost per mile is also lower, by about 3 cents a mile less compared to E10 and regular even with their better mpg results. But that is my area of the country. After all, I am surrounded by over 40 ethanol plants and something like 15 biodiesel plants. We are swimming in the stuff, so the price is very good to use E85. Getting ready to pull the trigger on a custom tune for the ECM to fully take advantage of the E85, since that is what I primarily use. Should tighten the spread on mpg numbers between E85 and gasoline.

I am fully behind that people should have the choice to use what they wish in their vehicles. This mandate stuff has gone overboard. I may benefit, but others may not. let the market sort it out and let consumers buy what they wish for motor fuel. I don't care if their decision is based on internet stories about ethanol ruining engines or some other reason. It really doesn't matter. Just let folks buy what they choose, based on what they prefer, what they want to spend their money on, what gives them the best value, what makes them sleep well at night. Simple. Government meddling always messes things up for a lot of folks.
 
Do we have states? I thought they were nothing more than territories anymore. After all, while there is the appearance of statehood, if one looks closely, they can see the puppet strings leading to D.C. The 10th Ammendment is all but a complete joke. But that makes sense. The Constitution is really nothing more to idealize than a used kotex to a wide amount of politicians and citizens. This is why you occasionally hear calls for a Consitutional Convention to throw out the old one and start again.
 
Simple solution for you guys complaining about the EPA. Move to China. They have no such restrictive rules and regs there.

Personally I like breathing clean air.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Simple solution for you guys complaining about the EPA. Move to China. They have no such restrictive rules and regs there.

Personally I like breathing clean air.


Got any proof that they have a lack of regulation on pollution ?

They are building awfully clean power stations at a prodigious rate for a country with no controls.
 
They might be now, but remember when they had the summer olympics not all that long ago? They had to shut down factories and power plants to have enough clean air for the athletes. Even the commies realize once in a while they have to do something to clean up their act. I think the olympics gave them a wake up call that they needed to start doing a little better.
 
No, not "are there any smoggy days in LA these days ?", but is there proof that there is no environmental regulation in China.

That was the assertion...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Simple solution for you guys complaining about the EPA. Move to China. They have no such restrictive rules and regs there.

Personally I like breathing clean air.


Got any proof that they have a lack of regulation on pollution ?

They are building awfully clean power stations at a prodigious rate for a country with no controls.


I'll leave it to you to prove me wrong. But none of this belongs in the thread. It should be a technical discussion on the performance of E85 but anytime ethanol is mentioned it turns into a political discussion. Why?

Its got oil men scared to death. That's why.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I'll leave it to you to prove me wrong. But none of this belongs in the thread. It should be a technical discussion on the performance of E85 but anytime ethanol is mentioned it turns into a political discussion. Why?


Because YOU brought the EPA and China into the thread...why did you do that ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Simple solution for you guys complaining about the EPA. Move to China. They have no such restrictive rules and regs there.

Personally I like breathing clean air.


Got any proof that they have a lack of regulation on pollution ?

They are building awfully clean power stations at a prodigious rate for a country with no controls.


China has gone green but that's because their pollution problem is increasing. They had no choice.

Fortunately for them, the government can easily implement the change in direction.
 
Central planning has huge weaknesses, and China's highly volatile leadership makes a lot of good decisions and bad ones.

It may be a bit late to proclaim them some kind of 'green' ideal, their problems are deep and wide. But when you have a completely centralized Government with no balance or dissent it is easy to do what you want anytime, anywhere.

"Get those college kids out of that square NOW!"
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It may be a bit late to proclaim them some kind of 'green' ideal



never have...
 
I'm pretty sure that it has been said before, but let me debunk some of this:
1) Who exactly will be starving without corn to eat?
Ethanol is made from sugar, in the case of corn from the fructose as in high-fructose corn syrup - yes, the nasty stuff that you want to avoid in a healthy diet. And there exactly lies my point.

High-fructose corn syrup has been, or is in the process of being, replaced with alternatives like Splenda or Stevia in things like candy, sweets and sodas. Because it's better for your health, and you know it.

Noone wants to take your sugar candy away of course, nor does anyone want to take away your corn on a cob. But all that land that has been used for the production of high-fructose corn syrup has to be used somehow: Like making Ethanol for cars, as an example.

Secondly, making Ethanol from sugar (or sugar containing things such as corn mash) is known as the "first-generation Ethanol production process". The second-generation process uses cellulose, which means that you can have your corn cob, but it will still be possible to turn the leave-y stuff and the stems around it into Ethanol. The third-generation process uses algae that turn CO2, air and water from the atmosphere into Ethanol. Personally, I don't think that this will take away your Nagi roll Sushi, either. And if it does, just eat California roll instead. And as you may know: Dino oil are compressed algae, then seasoned for millions of years. This takes the millions of years out of the equation.

2) Oil is a frickin' ending resource
Pennsylvania and Texas crude (as well as Brent and Saudi crude, for that matter) are getting less and less - do you really want to burn that stuff in your engine in the form of gasoline or diesel, or do you want to keep those 3K OCIs going?

Long story short: Make yourself accustomed to the idea that Ethanol content in gasoline, as well as Biodiesel will increase rather than decrease over time. And at some point (probably beyond our lifetime), even engine oil will be made from vegetable oil. Because dino oil doesn't grow on trees.

Lastly, but not leastly:
3) Does my car use 33% more Ethanol than gasoline?
Nope. Seriously.

It is true that in theory the energy content of Ethanol is 33% less than gasoline. But here's the kicker: Ethanol has an octane rating of >96.

For example, take a theoretical, naturally aspired 4-cylinder flex engine of 1.2L displacement with 16 valves, a compression ratio somewhere at 11:1 and 100HP on both gasoline and Ethanol.

The ignition system will tune itself according to the fuel in the tank, and if the engine would produce 100HP on gasoline, it would produce roughly 110HP on Ethanol.

But, like most production cars, it has the same 100HP rating on both fuels. Where did the 10HP go? The engine gets leaned down.

As you may know, leaning down an engine will increase the combustion temperature. But atomizing fuel cools the air-fuel mixture down, and as more volume of Ethanol is injected than gasoline, those effects will cancel each other and you can lean the engine down to it's original rating of 100HP.

That's why on a properly tuned flex vehicle with a naturally aspired engine the real-world difference between E5 and E85 is not ±33%, but ±10-15%. On a turbo-equipped engine, it may as well be ±1-5% (as an all-Ethanol engine would not have a compression ratio of 11:1, but something in the ball park of 14:1, which can be accomplished by higher boost pressure).

I know that the whole Ethanol thing is a little hard to comprehend, but I hope that you enjoyed reading this little write up. Ethanol as a fuel is definitively an interesting subject that should be approached with an open mind. Whatever makes this world the best of all places for our children, amirite?
 
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A tad dripping with condescension...but:
* if you honestly think that there's enough land to offset/replace oil, even for the US, with perpetual growth in consumption, I've got a bridge to sell you.
* some of the figures that you quote defy science, although the directions of some of the arguments are in the correct direction, the conclusions are off.
* Our children will be competing with China and India for quality of life, not just food, and people (not your claim) who state that the third world will be happy energy slaves to the west have rocks in their head.

Won'y touch the HFCS straw.
 
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