Ambulance breakdowns- Ford 6.4

[440Magnum]

There was a multi-page article in the local paper today about mechanical breakdowns in the city's ambulance fleet- specifically breakdowns severe enough to prevent the ambulance from completing a dispatch. The vast majority of breakdowns are occurring in a batch of 2010 F-450 ambulances powered by the 6.4 Powerstroke in its last year of production. That tells me that they never did get that engine "right," as is sometimes claimed. An interesting factoid is that every single one of the fleet's F-450s has had at least one complete engine replacement, and at least one ambulance has had TWO complete engines swapped. Older F-350s with the 6.0 have actually done a little better, believe it or not. The fleet breakdown (critical enough to prevent completion of a dispatch) rate is 7.2 per 100,000 miles, and the statewide average of large city ambulance fleets is around 2-3 per 100k miles. If you take the 2010 F-450s out of the numbers, the local fleet is still just a little higher than the average, so there's probably a preventative maintenance problem too.

None of that is really news to anyone who's followed the Navistar/Powerstroke saga, but Ford is still making good on fixing them it would appear. And to rub salt in the wound, the city/county are going back to buying Cummins/Ram based ambulances again, and Ford had to recall their new 6.7L-powered ambulances last fall because a faulty EGR temperature sensor was shutting engines down and preventing restarting for an hour.

The article is only available online if you subscribe to the paper's website (I HATE that!) but they do have a summary teaser here

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes, the whole Ford/Navistar debacle left a bad taste in many people's mouths. Aside from the EGR bug, I believe the 6.7L "Scorpion" has been a massive improvement.

The problem now will be to get the people that were burned by the 6.4L (and to a lesser extent the 6.0L) to even consider a Ford diesel again. The price tag on those vehicles, the cost of the parts.... When somebody who has that much into something gets burned, getting them to even consider that brand again is a massive battle and in many cases will be impossible.

 

[rslifkin]

Interesting... Then again, the 6.0s doing a bit better doesn't shock me. Other than the head gaskets and EGR stuff, most of the 6.0 issues wouldn't cripple it right then and there, they would still get through the rest of the day.

 

[Zaedock]

It's too bad, because the design has potential.

Unfortunately, it takes a teardown and an arm and a leg to get there.

 

[440Magnum]

I think the 6.4 design was a horrible dead end. I know Navistar is still using it as one of the "Maxxforce" family, but its just inherently got issues. The 6.7 "Scorpion" is a HUGE improvement.

I guess its fortunate for Ford that pretty much everyone has had some level of issues with their medium-duty diesels, almost all emissions-system related. Ford won't suffer in the long run unless something really bad happens with the 6.7 (not likely after all this time.) Even Cummins hasn't been as bulletproof as they were in the 90s. Duramax has done remarkably well, given how skeptical of it everyone was when it first came out.

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Duramax has done remarkably well, given how skeptical of it everyone was when it first came out.


I certainly remember those days -- "six in a row makes 'em go, aluminum heads!?!". Now, all those guys are driving a Duramax powered pickup.

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
the city/county are going back to buying Cummins/Ram based ambulances again


Have they not considered a type I ambulance based on a larger chassis?

 

[SwampSurvivor]

I thought the issue was emissions system related? Idling would cause the computer to get confused and shut the engine down. You would either have to wait many many hours or have it dragged to a dealer.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
I thought the issue was emissions system related? Idling would cause the computer to get confused and shut the engine down. You would either have to wait many many hours or have it dragged to a dealer.


It has to do with the DPF system and regen. If the engines idle a lot, they don't clean out the DPF, causing the vehicle to restrict usage until the exhaust system is properly functioning in the eyes of the computer.

Anyone who is around ambulances knows that they idle for long periods of time. Its surprising to me that with all the problems with medium duty diesels and their associated emissions systems, that these companies haven't gone back to gas ambulances.

 

[bdcardinal]

The 6.4 was just a nightmare for owners. I love it because we make a lot of money on parts. Personally I would have no problems owning a 6.0 that got the BulletProof / ARP treatment or a 6.7 if someone wanted to donate to the cause.

Now that Ford started making their own diesels the reliability has gone up a lot.

 

[NHGUY]

International should have stuck with farm tractors and industrial equipment,instead of selling that division off.Their Scout and pickup/Travelalls were largely disasters and "Loadstar"/"Cargostar" models and such werent much better.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: NHGUY
International should have stuck with farm tractors and industrial equipment,instead of selling that division off.Their Scout and pickup/Travelalls were largely disasters and "Loadstar"/"Cargostar" models and such werent much better.


I agree, look how successful their farm tractor brand was. Many old IH tractors are still sought after today.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The 6.4 was just a nightmare for owners. I love it because we make a lot of money on parts. Personally I would have no problems owning a 6.0 that got the BulletProof / ARP treatment or a 6.7 if someone wanted to donate to the cause.

Now that Ford started making their own diesels the reliability has gone up a lot.


They were good until the 6.0 .

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The 6.4 was just a nightmare for owners. I love it because we make a lot of money on parts. Personally I would have no problems owning a 6.0 that got the BulletProof / ARP treatment or a 6.7 if someone wanted to donate to the cause.

Now that Ford started making their own diesels the reliability has gone up a lot.


They were good until the 6.0 .


Once you work the bugs out, the 6.0 is great. You just have to do ARP studs, BulletProof EGR and oil cooler and a couple other things.

 

[mcrn]

The cummins is the only one in this class that is a true medium duty as far as i know. The others are considered light duty.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: mcrn
The cummins is the only one in this class that is a true medium duty as far as i know. The others are considered light duty.


Its definitely the most rugged of the 3, but in that class its not so much of a benefit since all three outlive the chassis. The Cummins just has more left in it when the chassis is scrapped. Move up a class or two, and then the Cummins shows its mettle.

FWIW, back in the 90s Austin/Travis CO EMS had Freightliner ambulances powered by 2-valve Cummins B5.9 engines. As far as I ever heard, they ran the wheels off of those without so much as a hiccup. But they were actually smaller and lighter than what they're dragging around with the F-450 these days.

And as to the question of the 6.0: I disagree. NOTHING makes it worth owning. Yes, you can make it hang together... more or less... but any engine that requires dropping the crankshaft to slide the cam out (out the rear of the block, no less) in order to replace a single failed valve lifter is J-U-N-K. Nevermind the issue of lifting the cab off the truck to get to the engine so you can drop the crank so you can change the lifter.... :-/

And judging by how many Ford *and* Navistar Maxxforce trucks I see laying down big, oily, white smokescreens when regen kicks in, I don't think that's ever been fully sorted out with the 6.4 either. Never have seen a Scorpion, Duramax, or Cummins do that. Kinda defeats the purpose of a DPF, dunnit?

 

[mrsilv04]

All of the ambulance companies here are running Chevy (and a few GMC) with Duramax engines now... as well as most of the towing companies. All of their 6.4 powered Ambulances are all "back up" units now, and are only put into service if they are absolutely needed.

Ford still hasn't figured out a way to get the 6.7 to fit in the cutaway chassis. Of course, it really doesn't matter at this point... the damage is already done. Maybe in 2015...

 

[mrsilv04]

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The 6.4 was just a nightmare for owners. I love it because we make a lot of money on parts. Personally I would have no problems owning a 6.0 that got the BulletProof / ARP treatment or a 6.7 if someone wanted to donate to the cause.

Now that Ford started making their own diesels the reliability has gone up a lot.


They were good until the 6.0 .


Once you work the bugs out, the 6.0 is great. You just have to do ARP studs, BulletProof EGR and oil cooler and a couple other things.


There's nothing like paying several extra thousand for a diesel engine, and then having to pay another couple thousand to get it right.

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Ford still hasn't figured out a way to get the 6.7 to fit in the cutaway chassis. Of course, it really doesn't matter at this point... the damage is already done. Maybe in 2015...


The Econoline is dead anyway. It is being replaced with a full sized Transit.

 

[wirelessF]

I don't know how often your C&C or State replaces ambulances/vehicles but here they replace them every three years. Not to long ago they replaced the 6.7L Ford ambulances with newer ones keeping the old fleet as backup. C&C also got new Ford 6.7L towtrucks to replace the Dodge Cummins towtrucks used for the roadside assistance program.

IMO Hawaii is a huge Ford fanboy.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
The 6.4 was just a nightmare for owners. I love it because we make a lot of money on parts. Personally I would have no problems owning a 6.0 that got the BulletProof / ARP treatment or a 6.7 if someone wanted to donate to the cause.

Now that Ford started making their own diesels the reliability has gone up a lot.


They were good until the 6.0 .


Once you work the bugs out, the 6.0 is great. You just have to do ARP studs, BulletProof EGR and oil cooler and a couple other things.


There's nothing like paying several extra thousand for a diesel engine, and then having to pay another couple thousand to get it right.


This is sad but true. Later engines got upgraded head bolts but you still need to delete the EGR and if you don't, the cooler destroys the coolant, which plugs the oil cooler and well we know how that row of dominos goes

There's a ton of PM you need to do in order to keep EGR on that engine. That, and deleting it also increases fuel economy significantly.

But none of that really should be necessary as you are alluding to, and I agree.