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#3262914 - 01/28/14 05:37 PM Urea injection for diesel
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2193
Loc: sun & rain, S. FL.
Why do some vehicles require this, i.e., Chevy Cruze Diesel and others do not, like the Jetta TDI? What is the main purpose?
_________________________
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13 Hyundai Santa Fe Sp 2.0T - 5W-40 Kendall - TF2808 - <4800 mi

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#3262922 - 01/28/14 05:45 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Urea is used to help meet more stringent emissions requirements. TDIs will soon utilize urea as well. Some TDI applications already use urea (Passat, Touareg).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid
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#3262925 - 01/28/14 05:47 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
PandaBear Offline


Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 12472
Loc: Silicon Valley
Originally Posted By: wemay
Why do some vehicles require this, i.e., Chevy Cruze Diesel and others do not, like the Jetta TDI? What is the main purpose?



The main purpose is to get rid of the high NOX emission on diesel. Some cars don't require it because they run rich once in a while to provide enough HC and CO to be burnt and neutralize with the NOX. With urea you do not have to do that (and in theory can run at higher efficiency overall).
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#3262931 - 01/28/14 05:50 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2193
Loc: sun & rain, S. FL.
thanks guys
_________________________
14 Hyundai Sonata GLS 2.4L - 0W-20 NAPA - OEM - <7500 mi
13 Hyundai Santa Fe Sp 2.0T - 5W-40 Kendall - TF2808 - <4800 mi

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#3262938 - 01/28/14 05:55 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33783
Loc: New Jersey
It is a reagent in the catalytic process to get rid of NOx. In the USA, we're held hostage by California's geography and thus we can call 8 MPG SUVs "partial zero" emissions vehicles, while diesels are "gross polluters" when they return 50 MPG - and are forced to have this claptrap.

Actually Id rather have urea than not, and go another route. I think the processes to prevent NOx in diesels are worse than the aftertreatment...

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#3262944 - 01/28/14 05:59 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2193
Loc: sun & rain, S. FL.
'claptrap' LOLOL...
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13 Hyundai Santa Fe Sp 2.0T - 5W-40 Kendall - TF2808 - <4800 mi

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#3262970 - 01/28/14 06:18 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
Eddie Offline


Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 6758
Loc: Florida, Cape Coral
Like the PPM [censored] when comparing a 10 mpg vehicle to a 40 mpg vehicle. Thank you auto industry lobby.
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#3262971 - 01/28/14 06:18 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 219
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Standard three-way catalytic converter doesn't really work on diesels, since they are stratified-charge engines that run very lean and therefore have too much oxygen in the exhaust.

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#3263117 - 01/28/14 08:13 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
edwardh1 Offline


Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1645
Loc: Coastal South Carolina
what is the cost of the urea

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#3263123 - 01/28/14 08:17 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: edwardh1]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 219
Loc: Chicago suburbs
DEF (urea in 32.5% solution with water) runs about $6/gallon in store, or under $3/gallon at truck stops with DEF pumps.

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#3263300 - 01/28/14 11:17 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1008
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I would have much rather the Urea/SCR thing would have been done first instead of the EGR [censored]. I don't care for any of this stuff, but having all emissions stuff handled outside the engine is a far better way to do it than making an engine eat it's own feces. As a side note, it has been shone that they can reduce EGR because of the SCR, and this in turn allows the engine to be more efficient and in turn the DPF doesn't have to do regens as frequently. Now, if they could just do away with the EGR, things might be more tolerable.
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#3263600 - 01/29/14 09:52 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
Stephen M. Offline


Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Vincennes, IN.
The Chevy Cruze does in face have a Urea injection system. The storage tank is located in the trunk.

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#3263609 - 01/29/14 10:04 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Stephen M.]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Stephen M.
The Chevy Cruze does in face have a Urea injection system.

Yuck. smile
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'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
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#3263616 - 01/29/14 10:20 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2193
Loc: sun & rain, S. FL.
Chevy advises to fill every 10k mi or so. Out of curiosity, what would happen if you failed to do so?
_________________________
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#3263676 - 01/29/14 11:07 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
A_Harman Online   content


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4280
Loc: Michigan
The vehicle would go into a limp home mode until you refilled the urea container. I think if you go past a given number of miles with the urea system empty, it will refuse to start.
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#3263684 - 01/29/14 11:16 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 2193
Loc: sun & rain, S. FL.
Thanks A_Harman
_________________________
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13 Hyundai Santa Fe Sp 2.0T - 5W-40 Kendall - TF2808 - <4800 mi

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#3263688 - 01/29/14 11:18 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: JHZR2]
Wesbo Offline


Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Could you pee in the tank to get enough solution to get home? I'm only partly kidding...

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#3263761 - 01/29/14 12:37 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Wesbo]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 219
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Originally Posted By: Wesbo
Could you pee in the tank to get enough solution to get home? I'm only partly kidding...


I wondered the same thing myself! grin But there are sensors to check urea concentration that ensure the content of the tank is truly DEF.

I'm thinking someone ought to invent a filter that would separate the water and urea out.

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#3263968 - 01/29/14 03:31 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: AP9]
A_Harman Online   content


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4280
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: AP9
Originally Posted By: Wesbo
Could you pee in the tank to get enough solution to get home? I'm only partly kidding...


I wondered the same thing myself! grin But there are sensors to check urea concentration that ensure the content of the tank is truly DEF.

I'm thinking someone ought to invent a filter that would separate the water and urea out.


I've also been wondering about the same thing. Is there some kind of special diet one could go on to make himself a urea dispenser? Imagine the earnings possibilities for just doing something that comes naturally. I think we may have a solution to the unemployment problem.
_________________________
1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck

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#3268573 - 02/02/14 10:02 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6899
Loc: Florida
Mazda avoided using urea injection because they created a diesel with 14:1 compression. That kept peak combustion chamber temperatures down, avoiding the higher temperatures that create NOx.
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#3268626 - 02/02/14 10:56 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: artificialist]
montr Offline


Registered: 11/16/13
Posts: 6
Loc: Georgia
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Mazda avoided using urea injection because they created a diesel with 14:1 compression. That kept peak combustion chamber temperatures down, avoiding the higher temperatures that create NOx.


In theory so far. Mazda has delayed the introduction of their Diesel to North America. I think the problem is certification.

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#3268642 - 02/02/14 11:11 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: montr]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6899
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: montr
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Mazda avoided using urea injection because they created a diesel with 14:1 compression. That kept peak combustion chamber temperatures down, avoiding the higher temperatures that create NOx.


In theory so far. Mazda has delayed the introduction of their Diesel to North America. I think the problem is certification.


Yes, I have heard rumors that the engine has bad fuel dilution due to frequent DPF regeneration, and that it takes a while to warm up, which raises cold weather emissions.
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#3269315 - 02/03/14 03:26 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: wemay
Chevy advises to fill every 10k mi or so. Out of curiosity, what would happen if you failed to do so?


My vehicle gives a warning of "999 miles until no start". IMO if you can't fill with that mileage you have no business driving.
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'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

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#3272077 - 02/06/14 04:44 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: TiredTrucker]
ac_tc Offline


Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 531
Loc: sweden
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I would have much rather the Urea/SCR thing would have been done first instead of the EGR [censored]. I don't care for any of this stuff, but having all emissions stuff handled outside the engine is a far better way to do it than making an engine eat it's own feces. As a side note, it has been shone that they can reduce EGR because of the SCR, and this in turn allows the engine to be more efficient and in turn the DPF doesn't have to do regens as frequently. Now, if they could just do away with the EGR, things might be more tolerable.


Urea injection is better in every way compared to the heavy egr thats needed to control nox.
Ok, it has one drawback...you have to fill at a rate of 1-3% but the tanks are generally big so its usually every third tank or so.
The def tech saves you about 3 bucks of diesel for every buck that you buy def fluid for by simply
allowing the engine to run at higher efficency, egr lowers the engines efficency..
_________________________
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-Everything else HDEO 10w- 40 ci4/STOU 10w-30/THF

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#3272613 - 02/06/14 02:17 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: montr]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15135
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: montr
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Mazda avoided using urea injection because they created a diesel with 14:1 compression. That kept peak combustion chamber temperatures down, avoiding the higher temperatures that create NOx.


In theory so far. Mazda has delayed the introduction of their Diesel to North America. I think the problem is certification.


OMG, there is no end to the Skyactiv dynasty is there?
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3274810 - 02/08/14 12:54 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
Shaman Offline


Registered: 07/27/04
Posts: 2298
Loc: Frankfort, Kentucky
Despite my disgust for the politics that brought this about, it will make factory water injection more likely in the future. It also creates new tanks for people that owned the vehicle before the EPA vomitted on it to use for water/methanol kits, referring to Duramaxes in particular.

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#3276336 - 02/09/14 08:16 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: artificialist]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33783
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Yes, I have heard rumors that the engine has bad fuel dilution due to frequent DPF regeneration, and that it takes a while to warm up, which raises cold weather emissions.


The regen thing I get, the warm up??? Other than some higher thermal efficiency, I dont see a substantial difference to warm up a diesel than a ga$$er, because if the same alloys, lube types, etc. are used, and the same power is output, its a matter of mass and heat capacity.

The diesel is more efficient, but the few % dont make a big difference given the quantity of waste heat. The engines are heavier, but that heat capacity difference can be calculated, and if normalized, wouldnt be any longer. Practically speaking it may not be any different.

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#3285979 - 02/18/14 08:11 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: JHZR2]
ac_tc Offline


Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 531
Loc: sweden
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Yes, I have heard rumors that the engine has bad fuel dilution due to frequent DPF regeneration, and that it takes a while to warm up, which raises cold weather emissions.


The regen thing I get, the warm up??? Other than some higher thermal efficiency, I dont see a substantial difference to warm up a diesel than a ga$$er, because if the same alloys, lube types, etc. are used, and the same power is output, its a matter of mass and heat capacity.

The diesel is more efficient, but the few % dont make a big difference given the quantity of waste heat. The engines are heavier, but that heat capacity difference can be calculated, and if normalized, wouldnt be any longer. Practically speaking it may not be any different.


Diesels are infact so effective at idle that they generally cant keep hot..


Edited by ac_tc (02/18/14 08:11 AM)
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#3286015 - 02/18/14 09:13 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
Miller88 Online   content


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 6791
Loc: Onondaga County
Why not kick all of this EPA garbage to the curb and go back to reliable, simple diesels?

Oh, wait, then Al Gore wouldn't be a multi billionaire ...


Edited by Miller88 (02/18/14 09:13 AM)
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#3286090 - 02/18/14 10:54 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Miller88]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Why not kick all of this EPA garbage to the curb and go back to reliable, simple diesels?

Oh, wait, then Al Gore wouldn't be a multi billionaire ...


Maybe we should all just go back to walking everywhere. It was much simpler and more reliable.

The concepts around EGR and SCR are sound.
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
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#3288771 - 02/20/14 06:45 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Miller88]
Thermo1223 Offline


Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Easton, PA
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Why not kick all of this EPA garbage to the curb and go back to reliable, simple diesels?

Oh, wait, then Al Gore wouldn't be a multi billionaire ...


Because then you'd have a diesel generating 100hp and 300tq out of 8 liters of combustion.

The reasons diesel's run so well and make so much power is the multiple computer controlled injection events. Mechanical simply cannot do that. It may be more reliable but that is the only benefit.

Why not ditch FI and go back to carbs? Simpler right?
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#3288837 - 02/20/14 07:36 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Thermo1223]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 219
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Maybe we should all just go back to walking everywhere. It was much simpler and more reliable.

The concepts around EGR and SCR are sound.


Yes, but IMHO, EGR does not belong on a diesel engine. Period.



Originally Posted By: Thermo1223

Because then you'd have a diesel generating 100hp and 300tq out of 8 liters of combustion.

The reasons diesel's run so well and make so much power is the multiple computer controlled injection events. Mechanical simply cannot do that. It may be more reliable but that is the only benefit.

Why not ditch FI and go back to carbs? Simpler right?


All was fine and well in the world of diesel power until 2007 EPA regulations. Then it took a turn for the worse with 2010 EPA standards. Engines before these emissions regulations were able to achieve decent output; heck, most pre-07 engines could run on recycled vegetable oil just fine, similar to Rudolf Diesel's original engines that were not at all picky about fuel. And look what happened to Caterpillar post-2010.

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#3289202 - 02/21/14 07:06 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: AP9]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11625
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
We went through that same complaint with gassers with the first big round of environmental regulations. It worked out with gassers. It'll work out with diesels. I don't envy those who have to suffer it out now, but things will improve down the road.
_________________________
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2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3289338 - 02/21/14 09:27 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Garak]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15135
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Garak
We went through that same complaint with gassers with the first big round of environmental regulations. It worked out with gassers. It'll work out with diesels. I don't envy those who have to suffer it out now, but things will improve down the road.


Sounds virtually verbatim to the arguing about catalytic converters in the early 70's to me...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3289421 - 02/21/14 11:00 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: AP9]
Thermo1223 Offline


Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Easton, PA
Originally Posted By: AP9
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Maybe we should all just go back to walking everywhere. It was much simpler and more reliable.

The concepts around EGR and SCR are sound.


Yes, but IMHO, EGR does not belong on a diesel engine. Period.



Originally Posted By: Thermo1223

Because then you'd have a diesel generating 100hp and 300tq out of 8 liters of combustion.

The reasons diesel's run so well and make so much power is the multiple computer controlled injection events. Mechanical simply cannot do that. It may be more reliable but that is the only benefit.

Why not ditch FI and go back to carbs? Simpler right?


All was fine and well in the world of diesel power until 2007 EPA regulations. Then it took a turn for the worse with 2010 EPA standards. Engines before these emissions regulations were able to achieve decent output; heck, most pre-07 engines could run on recycled vegetable oil just fine, similar to Rudolf Diesel's original engines that were not at all picky about fuel. And look what happened to Caterpillar post-2010.


No modern diesel will ever be able to run on WVO, just because you can does not mean you should. Nothing before the mid 80's should ever touch the stuff, it is poison. Rudolf's ran on peanut oil, virgin peanut oil. You want power and fun, you need a quality controlled fuel WVO, VO, Bio-D are not those fuels. It all comes back to straight D2 ULSD.

You want them to still be around you need emission controls otherwise you can also kiss them goodbye.

The industry on the whole is forcing everyone running D2 to step up. I am sure the rail industry is moaning in the same fashion.
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#3289438 - 02/21/14 11:17 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: JHZR2]
A_Harman Online   content


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4280
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Yes, I have heard rumors that the engine has bad fuel dilution due to frequent DPF regeneration, and that it takes a while to warm up, which raises cold weather emissions.


The regen thing I get, the warm up??? Other than some higher thermal efficiency, I dont see a substantial difference to warm up a diesel than a ga$$er, because if the same alloys, lube types, etc. are used, and the same power is output, its a matter of mass and heat capacity.

The diesel is more efficient, but the few % dont make a big difference given the quantity of waste heat. The engines are heavier, but that heat capacity difference can be calculated, and if normalized, wouldnt be any longer. Practically speaking it may not be any different.


The big factors affecting diesel engine warmup time is very lean air-fuel ratios that they run at idle, and the fact that they run unthrottled. Air-fuel ratios of a diesel at idle can run 80:1. This means very low in-cylinder temperature, so not much heat is available to transfer into the water jackets. Idling during a winter day, my truck does not make enough heat to keep the thermostat open, and it takes about 20 minutes to get any useful heat out of the heater. There is a downside to high thermal efficiency, depending on how you want to look at it.
_________________________
1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
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#3289724 - 02/21/14 04:03 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: SteveSRT8]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11625
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Sounds virtually verbatim to the arguing about catalytic converters in the early 70's to me...

And unleaded fuel, and every other change to emissions rules we saw with gassers, too. wink
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3289884 - 02/21/14 06:39 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 219
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Hopefully . . . .

It's just kind of scary when you see major players like Caterpillar giving up and leaving the industry completely, and others like Navistar taking quite the beating.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they're just (relatively) temporary hiccups, but look how many people seem to be souring on diesels because of these emissions issues.

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#3290196 - 02/22/14 03:28 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: AP9]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11625
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Well, it is unfortunate, and diesel is already behind the 8 ball in a lot of ways. It's not an easy situation for everyone involved. If we want to see more diesel engines, their emissions controls are going to have to get more modern and reliable. If we want their emissions systems to get more modern and reliable, we're going to see some teething problems.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3290317 - 02/22/14 08:37 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: A_Harman]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15135
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The big factors affecting diesel engine warmup time is very lean air-fuel ratios that they run at idle, and the fact that they run unthrottled. Air-fuel ratios of a diesel at idle can run 80:1. This means very low in-cylinder temperature, so not much heat is available to transfer into the water jackets. Idling during a winter day, my truck does not make enough heat to keep the thermostat open, and it takes about 20 minutes to get any useful heat out of the heater. There is a downside to high thermal efficiency, depending on how you want to look at it.


This is precisely why we do not use them in our business. Our upfitter has a diesel version that they export to third world countries but it requires a huge heater and all the complex controls to protect it due to the fact that a diesel simply cannot produce the huge amounts of heat we can easily get from a gasser...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
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#3291437 - 02/23/14 09:17 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Garak]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: Garak
Well, it is unfortunate, and diesel is already behind the 8 ball in a lot of ways. It's not an easy situation for everyone involved. If we want to see more diesel engines, their emissions controls are going to have to get more modern and reliable. If we want their emissions systems to get more modern and reliable, we're going to see some teething problems.


Agreed. What is so frustrating is the perceived lack of testing by the OEM's. The concepts of EGR and SCR are fairly simple but the execution leaves something to be desired. Carbonized intakes should either not require maintenance until significant miles have been reached OR cleaning should be relatively easy to perform by the owner.

Same goes for the SCR. If I need to rinse it out with distilled water prior to refill make it so instead of choosing to do nothing and just replace parts when they fail*.

*My car is on its third trip to the dealer over a Urea leak. The system for some reason decides to let the pump run after it evacuate a line and pump DEF out of the vent tube onto the ground.
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#3327712 - 03/29/14 09:07 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: JHZR2]
bobthefarmer Offline


Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 2
Loc: Mid-South Memphis, TN
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
It is a reagent in the catalytic process to get rid of NOx. In the USA, we're held hostage by California's geography and thus we can call 8 MPG SUVs "partial zero" emissions vehicles, while diesels are "gross polluters" when they return 50 MPG - and are forced to have this claptrap.

Actually Id rather have urea than not, and go another route. I think the processes to prevent NOx in diesels are worse than the aftertreatment...


Correct, reduced NOx. The leaner an engine gets, the higher propensity to produce NOx. It is a bad pollution. Urea is far better alternative to the DPF which uses Raw Fuel in the exhaust stroke to burn off particulates and reduce NOx. That is wasteful and unused heat energy.

Basically the 80% N2 in Air becomes reactive with Excess O2 due to not using it for combustion (read very lean). It is an undesireable byproduct of being a lean efficient engine.

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#3327736 - 03/29/14 09:24 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
bobthefarmer Offline


Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 2
Loc: Mid-South Memphis, TN
I read about people not liking EGR. It is the best alternative to reducing NOx because it introduces O2 starved exhaust gas at low power demand conditions (idle or cruise) and reduces the formation of these pollutants. The selection of where manufacturers select the exhaust gasses is important. Too close to the turbo is too Hot. Before the turbo, too much soot formation. far from those, cooler and reduced soot and then "cleaner" air and less residue build up in the intake manifold.

Gassers have EGR tubes less than 3/8 inch (10 mm). Diesels have huge diameters, mine is 3/4 inch (20 mm) on a 1.9 liter Tdi. That much exhaust air is bound to carry residual intake manifold build up that requires a maintenance program to periodically eliminate. Any ideas on how to perform such a task?

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#3328981 - 03/31/14 10:22 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: bobthefarmer]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: bobthefarmer
I read about people not liking EGR. It is the best alternative to reducing NOx because it introduces O2 starved exhaust gas at low power demand conditions (idle or cruise) and reduces the formation of these pollutants. The selection of where manufacturers select the exhaust gasses is important. Too close to the turbo is too Hot. Before the turbo, too much soot formation. far from those, cooler and reduced soot and then "cleaner" air and less residue build up in the intake manifold.

Gassers have EGR tubes less than 3/8 inch (10 mm). Diesels have huge diameters, mine is 3/4 inch (20 mm) on a 1.9 liter Tdi. That much exhaust air is bound to carry residual intake manifold build up that requires a maintenance program to periodically eliminate. Any ideas on how to perform such a task?
you're basically correct. EGR lowers combustion temps (less O2) which lowers NOX formation. You have either a high pressure EGR or a combination High & Low pressure EGR.

As for cleaning you just pull off the intake or use a product to dissolve the carbon and send it down stream to be burned off.

FWIW the HP EGR for the BMW M57 is attached to the exhaust manifold and it sends a lot of soot back into the intake when open.
_________________________
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#3329773 - 03/31/14 10:03 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Thermo1223]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1008
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Why not kick all of this EPA garbage to the curb and go back to reliable, simple diesels?

Oh, wait, then Al Gore wouldn't be a multi billionaire ...


Because then you'd have a diesel generating 100hp and 300tq out of 8 liters of combustion.

The reasons diesel's run so well and make so much power is the multiple computer controlled injection events. Mechanical simply cannot do that. It may be more reliable but that is the only benefit.

Why not ditch FI and go back to carbs? Simpler right?


Well, not quite sure how the response related to the question here. The EPA goodies have nothing to do with power and torque. And no, you do not need computer controlled engine to generate serious power. You would be real hard pressed to convince an owner of the Cat 3406B mechanical diesel engine that is putting 1000 hp to the ground along with 2250 lb of torque that he can't do that without an ECM.

Or the carb thing? Again, what does that have to do with urea, diesels, and the EPA? FI has been a part of standard diesel components for longer than the EPA has been in existence.
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#3329982 - 04/01/14 07:01 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
ac_tc Offline


Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 531
Loc: sweden
"you're basically correct. EGR lowers combustion temps (less O2) which lowers NOX formation."

- Here you have whats troblesome with egr.
It lowers combustion temperatures...
-This means that you have to use more fuel since it is the temperature of the expanding gasses thats drives your engine.
Lower the temperature and output will be lower.
Then there are other problems like soot, large egr coolers and the assorted plumbing and valves but these are merely solvable
problems unlike the lower temperature wich have to follow a natural law and to that theres nothing you can do.
_________________________
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-04 PT Cruser GT 10w- 40 HDEO ci4
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#3330009 - 04/01/14 07:28 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1008
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I wouldn't agree that EGR is the best method for reducing NOx. This could have all been handled quite well outside the engine with SCR, either in Urea DEF form or with a cartridge substrate solidified form like has been developed by Amminex. All emissions cleanup could be handled downstream of the diesel engine. The EPA, who has never turned a wrench on an engine, is behind the EGR idea. EGR on gassers is one thing, it is quite another on a diesel. With a diesel you need to have a cooler unit that will cool the exhaust gasses before feeding them to the intake. This puts tremendous loads on the cooling system over an above the engine needs itself. And when one of those coolers blows a leak, just hope you catch it before you need an engine rebuild.

Between the soot loading back into the engine, the required cooling of the EGR gasses, and the reduced combustion efficiency, which in turn increases the level of soot (talk about a dog chasing his tail), there is not one good thing about EGR and diesel engines. It was primarily because of the increased soot generation brought on by EGR that diesel particulate filters were mandated.

I currently am using a '98 EPA certified 2000 model 12.7 Detroit 60 in my 2013 model year truck. This engine has had some nice ECM tuning work done and it generate 550 hp and 1850 torque, and barely even soots anything. The stack tips remain very clean. No EGR and no DPF. That was not the case with my previous Cummins ISX with EGR. The soot loading on that one was tremendous. And along with the lower soot loading of the engine I use now, it puts the other engine to shame in fuel efficiency. I easily get 20-25% better fuel economy.
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#3330034 - 04/01/14 08:00 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: TiredTrucker]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I wouldn't agree that EGR is the best method for reducing NOx. This could have all been handled quite well outside the engine with SCR, either in Urea DEF form or with a cartridge substrate solidified form like has been developed by Amminex. All emissions cleanup could be handled downstream of the diesel engine. The EPA, who has never turned a wrench on an engine, is behind the EGR idea. EGR on gassers is one thing, it is quite another on a diesel. With a diesel you need to have a cooler unit that will cool the exhaust gasses before feeding them to the intake. This puts tremendous loads on the cooling system over an above the engine needs itself. And when one of those coolers blows a leak, just hope you catch it before you need an engine rebuild.

Between the soot loading back into the engine, the required cooling of the EGR gasses, and the reduced combustion efficiency, which in turn increases the level of soot (talk about a dog chasing his tail), there is not one good thing about EGR and diesel engines. It was primarily because of the increased soot generation brought on by EGR that diesel particulate filters were mandated.

I currently am using a '98 EPA certified 2000 model 12.7 Detroit 60 in my 2013 model year truck. This engine has had some nice ECM tuning work done and it generate 550 hp and 1850 torque, and barely even soots anything. The stack tips remain very clean. No EGR and no DPF. That was not the case with my previous Cummins ISX with EGR. The soot loading on that one was tremendous. And along with the lower soot loading of the engine I use now, it puts the other engine to shame in fuel efficiency. I easily get 20-25% better fuel economy.


It would be nice to not need EGR. I guess current SCR systems can only convert a certain amount of NOX because I'm sure OEMS would've done away with EGR. Maybe in the not so distant future it will happen.

Interestingly it seems that only passenger cars and light trucks Diesels are likely to have EGR issues whereas OTR trucks do not.
_________________________
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#3330187 - 04/01/14 10:37 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
m37charlie Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 1134
Loc: Alaska
With EGR my camper wall above and behind the stack used to get soot deposits.
With the EGR cooler in the garage (replaced by a plate) there is no more soot buildup on the camper, or in the air. So I've traded somewhat more NOx for much less soot emission. And no more risk of potential engine-deadly EGR cooler leak (already happened once at 12000 mi, replaced with revised part under warranty).

Charlie
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#3330550 - 04/01/14 04:59 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1008
Loc: Kellogg, IA
As to whether the OEM's would have dropped EGR since we have SCR, not so sure. There is a lot of regulatory stuff going on behind the scenes. The OEM's are pretty much at the mercy of what the EPA is going to allow or not allow them to do in meeting emissions requirements.

Could it be to cover for when the DEF might be frozen in the lines before the engine has warmed up and coolant circulated to thaw the DEF? Could be it. But the cartridge that Amminex has had developed for a while now would circumvent that issue.

What I find truly amazing is that Navistar bought into Amminex to the tune of 50% ownership, and has yet to even put one of these on their commercial trucks. Since they got into a mess with the EPA regarding their non use of SCR and trying to meet regs by heavy dosing EGR, they had to finally put on SCR. They could have done the cartridge thing and made many folk's life easier. But they didn't. Go figure.
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#3330609 - 04/01/14 06:34 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
A_Harman Online   content


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4280
Loc: Michigan
Navistar adopted the EPA's emissions control technology that relied heavily on EGR, and then found their engines couldn't pass production audit testing. Now they're trying to catch up to the rest of the manufacturers that have been using SCR, and it's good to see. Maybe Navistar will survive as a diesel engine manufacturer.

I sat through a presentation a couple of years ago given by Wayne Eckerle, who was director of research at Cummins. He discussed their on-highway emissions strategy. Cummins did an extensive design and testing program comparing EGR and SCR NOx control systems. After extensive testing, their decision was to go with SCR because there was a 10% fuel economy advantage, and the trucks would be cheaper to operate, even considering the cost of DEF.
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#3331285 - 04/02/14 10:41 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Well I read the newer off road Diesels can meet previous emissions requirements with SCR only. Seems getting to current on-road requirements is going to be tougher.
_________________________
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#3332423 - 04/03/14 02:59 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Wesbo]
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: Wesbo
Could you pee in the tank to get enough solution to get home? I'm only partly kidding...


Human urine does not contain near enough urea. DEF is ~32% urea while human urine is roughly 2.5% urea.
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#3332478 - 04/03/14 04:00 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: JHZR2]
Surestick Offline


Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 63
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
The regen thing I get, the warm up??? Other than some higher thermal efficiency, I dont see a substantial difference to warm up a diesel than a ga$$er, because if the same alloys, lube types, etc. are used, and the same power is output, its a matter of mass and heat capacity.

The diesel is more efficient, but the few % dont make a big difference given the quantity of waste heat. The engines are heavier, but that heat capacity difference can be calculated, and if normalized, wouldnt be any longer. Practically speaking it may not be any different.


At 20C outside there's no real appreciable difference - My Subaru will show normal temp in a couple of blocks, my VW TDI will take a block or two longer. At -20C the TDI won't be showing anything on the temp gauge after 5km, my Subaru will be halfway to warm. With heat on full blast at -20C, even on the highway, the TDI will show a few needle widths under normal temp until I back off the blower fan.

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#3332502 - 04/03/14 04:19 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
Surestick Offline


Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 63
Loc: Quebec, Canada
I believe that one of the reasons for this is that way a diesel burns fuel. Instead of a homogeneous mixture like in an SI engine the mixture in a diesel isn't homogeneous, it burns closer to the centre of the combustion chamber where it's injected. This leaves an insulating layer of air between the combustion process and the cylinder walls that reduces the amount of heat going into the coolant. It's kind of like a turbine engine which protects it's burner cans with relatively cool air flow from the compressor that's not used to burn fuel.

Obviously there's more going on, take model diesel engines vs. glow engines. They use a homogeneous mixture yet run cooler than the alcohol-fuelled glow engines.

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#3334950 - 04/06/14 12:48 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
ac_tc Offline


Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 531
Loc: sweden
Not so long ago every one was uppset by the fact that
you need to fill your diesel with urea and they thaught that urea was expensive....
So the manufacturers invented cooled egr....
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-04 PT Cruser GT 10w- 40 HDEO ci4
-Everything else HDEO 10w- 40 ci4/STOU 10w-30/THF

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#3336193 - 04/07/14 07:31 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: ac_tc]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6899
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: ac_tc
Not so long ago every one was uppset by the fact that
you need to fill your diesel with urea and they thaught that urea was expensive....
So the manufacturers invented cooled egr....

What I encountered was not that people were offended by having to buy DEF.
They were upset that the engine would have an extra thing that needed to be maintained.

And cooled EGR is used on engines with DEF.
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#3336245 - 04/07/14 08:16 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: artificialist]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 219
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: ac_tc
Not so long ago every one was uppset by the fact that
you need to fill your diesel with urea and they thaught that urea was expensive....
So the manufacturers invented cooled egr....

What I encountered was not that people were offended by having to buy DEF.
They were upset that the engine would have an extra thing that needed to be maintained.

And cooled EGR is used on engines with DEF.


True, but Caterpillar ACERT and Navistar EGR engines (for 2010 EPA NOx emissions) really crank up the EGR, which puts quite a bit more of a load on the cooling system.

I'm not as well-versed on modern passenger car diesels, but I'd assume the same deal with them too.


Edited by AP9 (04/07/14 08:17 PM)

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#3336424 - 04/08/14 12:10 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: A_Harman]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1008
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Navistar adopted the EPA's emissions control technology that relied heavily on EGR, and then found their engines couldn't pass production audit testing. Now they're trying to catch up to the rest of the manufacturers that have been using SCR, and it's good to see. Maybe Navistar will survive as a diesel engine manufacturer.

I sat through a presentation a couple of years ago given by Wayne Eckerle, who was director of research at Cummins. He discussed their on-highway emissions strategy. Cummins did an extensive design and testing program comparing EGR and SCR NOx control systems. After extensive testing, their decision was to go with SCR because there was a 10% fuel economy advantage, and the trucks would be cheaper to operate, even considering the cost of DEF.


That's true, Navistar went with high EGR, and got bit in the backside for doing so. That just makes things even more confusing. Since they bought a 50% share of Amminex, who makes SCR solid cartridges to use in place of DEF tanks, why didn't Navistar then, or now, go with the system. It seems like a best of all worlds solution. You get SCR to keep the EPA happy, and it is in a solid cartridge form that is designed to go the length of a typical oil change interval. Easy to take a used cartridge out and slide in a new one. And a spare cartridge could be carried in a side box if needed. No risk of spilling or corrosion.

Instead, they adopted Cummins SCR technology with DEF. Go figure.
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