Recent Topics
Honda Pilot gas mileage
by G-MAN
10/19/14 09:21 PM
Anyone else fed up with today's country music?
by 04SE
10/19/14 08:52 PM
Best Oil Filter For A 2001 Toyota Avalon V6
by crazyoildude
10/19/14 08:33 PM
Had Trav service my injectors.
by ls1mike
10/19/14 08:14 PM
Video review/test - Noco Genius Boost
by 901Memphis
10/19/14 07:24 PM
Interference diesel engine
by MDettling
10/19/14 07:06 PM
Corolla 1/2 quart too much ATF?
by Corollaman
10/19/14 06:42 PM
yr car has a security system. u lose all the keys,
by edwardh1
10/19/14 06:15 PM
Attepted to steal van
by Scott_mi
10/19/14 04:36 PM
is there an advantage to exercise spare tires?
by friendly_jacek
10/19/14 04:06 PM
Type b grease for Sawzall
by Dan55
10/19/14 03:56 PM
Charged By Dogs on Bicycle (Different Dogs)
by john_pifer
10/19/14 03:50 PM
Newest Members
Impatient, noDi89, Roadwarior, silvercivicsi, sc00te12
51632 Registered Users
Who's Online
66 registered (01_celica_gt, asiancivicmaniac, ag_ghost, 901Memphis, 7 invisible), 1277 Guests and 167 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51632 Members
64 Forums
220947 Topics
3491814 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#3288771 - 02/20/14 06:45 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Miller88]
Thermo1223 Offline


Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1757
Loc: Easton, PA
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Why not kick all of this EPA garbage to the curb and go back to reliable, simple diesels?

Oh, wait, then Al Gore wouldn't be a multi billionaire ...


Because then you'd have a diesel generating 100hp and 300tq out of 8 liters of combustion.

The reasons diesel's run so well and make so much power is the multiple computer controlled injection events. Mechanical simply cannot do that. It may be more reliable but that is the only benefit.

Why not ditch FI and go back to carbs? Simpler right?
_________________________
2004 - Jetta Wagon TDI - Gone
2009 - Subaru Forester XT - 4AT 5k OCI
2014 - Scion xD - 4AT Toyota Care

Top
#3288837 - 02/20/14 07:36 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Thermo1223]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 217
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Maybe we should all just go back to walking everywhere. It was much simpler and more reliable.

The concepts around EGR and SCR are sound.


Yes, but IMHO, EGR does not belong on a diesel engine. Period.



Originally Posted By: Thermo1223

Because then you'd have a diesel generating 100hp and 300tq out of 8 liters of combustion.

The reasons diesel's run so well and make so much power is the multiple computer controlled injection events. Mechanical simply cannot do that. It may be more reliable but that is the only benefit.

Why not ditch FI and go back to carbs? Simpler right?


All was fine and well in the world of diesel power until 2007 EPA regulations. Then it took a turn for the worse with 2010 EPA standards. Engines before these emissions regulations were able to achieve decent output; heck, most pre-07 engines could run on recycled vegetable oil just fine, similar to Rudolf Diesel's original engines that were not at all picky about fuel. And look what happened to Caterpillar post-2010.

Top
#3289202 - 02/21/14 07:06 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: AP9]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11590
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
We went through that same complaint with gassers with the first big round of environmental regulations. It worked out with gassers. It'll work out with diesels. I don't envy those who have to suffer it out now, but things will improve down the road.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

Top
#3289338 - 02/21/14 09:27 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Garak]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15093
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Garak
We went through that same complaint with gassers with the first big round of environmental regulations. It worked out with gassers. It'll work out with diesels. I don't envy those who have to suffer it out now, but things will improve down the road.


Sounds virtually verbatim to the arguing about catalytic converters in the early 70's to me...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

Top
#3289421 - 02/21/14 11:00 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: AP9]
Thermo1223 Offline


Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1757
Loc: Easton, PA
Originally Posted By: AP9
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Maybe we should all just go back to walking everywhere. It was much simpler and more reliable.

The concepts around EGR and SCR are sound.


Yes, but IMHO, EGR does not belong on a diesel engine. Period.



Originally Posted By: Thermo1223

Because then you'd have a diesel generating 100hp and 300tq out of 8 liters of combustion.

The reasons diesel's run so well and make so much power is the multiple computer controlled injection events. Mechanical simply cannot do that. It may be more reliable but that is the only benefit.

Why not ditch FI and go back to carbs? Simpler right?


All was fine and well in the world of diesel power until 2007 EPA regulations. Then it took a turn for the worse with 2010 EPA standards. Engines before these emissions regulations were able to achieve decent output; heck, most pre-07 engines could run on recycled vegetable oil just fine, similar to Rudolf Diesel's original engines that were not at all picky about fuel. And look what happened to Caterpillar post-2010.


No modern diesel will ever be able to run on WVO, just because you can does not mean you should. Nothing before the mid 80's should ever touch the stuff, it is poison. Rudolf's ran on peanut oil, virgin peanut oil. You want power and fun, you need a quality controlled fuel WVO, VO, Bio-D are not those fuels. It all comes back to straight D2 ULSD.

You want them to still be around you need emission controls otherwise you can also kiss them goodbye.

The industry on the whole is forcing everyone running D2 to step up. I am sure the rail industry is moaning in the same fashion.
_________________________
2004 - Jetta Wagon TDI - Gone
2009 - Subaru Forester XT - 4AT 5k OCI
2014 - Scion xD - 4AT Toyota Care

Top
#3289438 - 02/21/14 11:17 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: JHZR2]
A_Harman Offline


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4265
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Yes, I have heard rumors that the engine has bad fuel dilution due to frequent DPF regeneration, and that it takes a while to warm up, which raises cold weather emissions.


The regen thing I get, the warm up??? Other than some higher thermal efficiency, I dont see a substantial difference to warm up a diesel than a ga$$er, because if the same alloys, lube types, etc. are used, and the same power is output, its a matter of mass and heat capacity.

The diesel is more efficient, but the few % dont make a big difference given the quantity of waste heat. The engines are heavier, but that heat capacity difference can be calculated, and if normalized, wouldnt be any longer. Practically speaking it may not be any different.


The big factors affecting diesel engine warmup time is very lean air-fuel ratios that they run at idle, and the fact that they run unthrottled. Air-fuel ratios of a diesel at idle can run 80:1. This means very low in-cylinder temperature, so not much heat is available to transfer into the water jackets. Idling during a winter day, my truck does not make enough heat to keep the thermostat open, and it takes about 20 minutes to get any useful heat out of the heater. There is a downside to high thermal efficiency, depending on how you want to look at it.
_________________________
1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck

Top
#3289724 - 02/21/14 04:03 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: SteveSRT8]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11590
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Sounds virtually verbatim to the arguing about catalytic converters in the early 70's to me...

And unleaded fuel, and every other change to emissions rules we saw with gassers, too. wink
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

Top
#3289884 - 02/21/14 06:39 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
AP9 Offline


Registered: 07/10/13
Posts: 217
Loc: Chicago suburbs
Hopefully . . . .

It's just kind of scary when you see major players like Caterpillar giving up and leaving the industry completely, and others like Navistar taking quite the beating.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they're just (relatively) temporary hiccups, but look how many people seem to be souring on diesels because of these emissions issues.

Top
#3290196 - 02/22/14 03:28 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: AP9]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11590
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Well, it is unfortunate, and diesel is already behind the 8 ball in a lot of ways. It's not an easy situation for everyone involved. If we want to see more diesel engines, their emissions controls are going to have to get more modern and reliable. If we want their emissions systems to get more modern and reliable, we're going to see some teething problems.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

Top
#3290317 - 02/22/14 08:37 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: A_Harman]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15093
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The big factors affecting diesel engine warmup time is very lean air-fuel ratios that they run at idle, and the fact that they run unthrottled. Air-fuel ratios of a diesel at idle can run 80:1. This means very low in-cylinder temperature, so not much heat is available to transfer into the water jackets. Idling during a winter day, my truck does not make enough heat to keep the thermostat open, and it takes about 20 minutes to get any useful heat out of the heater. There is a downside to high thermal efficiency, depending on how you want to look at it.


This is precisely why we do not use them in our business. Our upfitter has a diesel version that they export to third world countries but it requires a huge heater and all the complex controls to protect it due to the fact that a diesel simply cannot produce the huge amounts of heat we can easily get from a gasser...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

Top
#3291437 - 02/23/14 09:17 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Garak]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1279
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: Garak
Well, it is unfortunate, and diesel is already behind the 8 ball in a lot of ways. It's not an easy situation for everyone involved. If we want to see more diesel engines, their emissions controls are going to have to get more modern and reliable. If we want their emissions systems to get more modern and reliable, we're going to see some teething problems.


Agreed. What is so frustrating is the perceived lack of testing by the OEM's. The concepts of EGR and SCR are fairly simple but the execution leaves something to be desired. Carbonized intakes should either not require maintenance until significant miles have been reached OR cleaning should be relatively easy to perform by the owner.

Same goes for the SCR. If I need to rinse it out with distilled water prior to refill make it so instead of choosing to do nothing and just replace parts when they fail*.

*My car is on its third trip to the dealer over a Urea leak. The system for some reason decides to let the pump run after it evacuate a line and pump DEF out of the vent tube onto the ground.
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

Top
#3327712 - 03/29/14 09:07 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: JHZR2]
bobthefarmer Offline


Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 2
Loc: Mid-South Memphis, TN
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
It is a reagent in the catalytic process to get rid of NOx. In the USA, we're held hostage by California's geography and thus we can call 8 MPG SUVs "partial zero" emissions vehicles, while diesels are "gross polluters" when they return 50 MPG - and are forced to have this claptrap.

Actually Id rather have urea than not, and go another route. I think the processes to prevent NOx in diesels are worse than the aftertreatment...


Correct, reduced NOx. The leaner an engine gets, the higher propensity to produce NOx. It is a bad pollution. Urea is far better alternative to the DPF which uses Raw Fuel in the exhaust stroke to burn off particulates and reduce NOx. That is wasteful and unused heat energy.

Basically the 80% N2 in Air becomes reactive with Excess O2 due to not using it for combustion (read very lean). It is an undesireable byproduct of being a lean efficient engine.

Top
#3327736 - 03/29/14 09:24 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: wemay]
bobthefarmer Offline


Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 2
Loc: Mid-South Memphis, TN
I read about people not liking EGR. It is the best alternative to reducing NOx because it introduces O2 starved exhaust gas at low power demand conditions (idle or cruise) and reduces the formation of these pollutants. The selection of where manufacturers select the exhaust gasses is important. Too close to the turbo is too Hot. Before the turbo, too much soot formation. far from those, cooler and reduced soot and then "cleaner" air and less residue build up in the intake manifold.

Gassers have EGR tubes less than 3/8 inch (10 mm). Diesels have huge diameters, mine is 3/4 inch (20 mm) on a 1.9 liter Tdi. That much exhaust air is bound to carry residual intake manifold build up that requires a maintenance program to periodically eliminate. Any ideas on how to perform such a task?

Top
#3328981 - 03/31/14 10:22 AM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: bobthefarmer]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1279
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: bobthefarmer
I read about people not liking EGR. It is the best alternative to reducing NOx because it introduces O2 starved exhaust gas at low power demand conditions (idle or cruise) and reduces the formation of these pollutants. The selection of where manufacturers select the exhaust gasses is important. Too close to the turbo is too Hot. Before the turbo, too much soot formation. far from those, cooler and reduced soot and then "cleaner" air and less residue build up in the intake manifold.

Gassers have EGR tubes less than 3/8 inch (10 mm). Diesels have huge diameters, mine is 3/4 inch (20 mm) on a 1.9 liter Tdi. That much exhaust air is bound to carry residual intake manifold build up that requires a maintenance program to periodically eliminate. Any ideas on how to perform such a task?
you're basically correct. EGR lowers combustion temps (less O2) which lowers NOX formation. You have either a high pressure EGR or a combination High & Low pressure EGR.

As for cleaning you just pull off the intake or use a product to dissolve the carbon and send it down stream to be burned off.

FWIW the HP EGR for the BMW M57 is attached to the exhaust manifold and it sends a lot of soot back into the intake when open.
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

Top
#3329773 - 03/31/14 10:03 PM Re: Urea injection for diesel [Re: Thermo1223]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1006
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Why not kick all of this EPA garbage to the curb and go back to reliable, simple diesels?

Oh, wait, then Al Gore wouldn't be a multi billionaire ...


Because then you'd have a diesel generating 100hp and 300tq out of 8 liters of combustion.

The reasons diesel's run so well and make so much power is the multiple computer controlled injection events. Mechanical simply cannot do that. It may be more reliable but that is the only benefit.

Why not ditch FI and go back to carbs? Simpler right?


Well, not quite sure how the response related to the question here. The EPA goodies have nothing to do with power and torque. And no, you do not need computer controlled engine to generate serious power. You would be real hard pressed to convince an owner of the Cat 3406B mechanical diesel engine that is putting 1000 hp to the ground along with 2250 lb of torque that he can't do that without an ECM.

Or the carb thing? Again, what does that have to do with urea, diesels, and the EPA? FI has been a part of standard diesel components for longer than the EPA has been in existence.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >