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#3271104 - 02/05/14 09:13 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: fpracha]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9612
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Trav
While i don't have all these statistics i do have engines that i took apart (over a dozen at last count, including one just 3 weeks ago) That are staying clean on synthetic at a 5K OCI.
One i cleaned at 80K that died on 7500 OCI synthetic and has now over 190K and is still clean.

But for the sake of argument you did go the dino and UOA route and the UOA didn't catch anything unusual and the engine sludged or varnished badly then what?

Hey i am just a mechanic working on engines for 40 years so what do i know other than what my lying eyes and experience tell me but thats not "proof".

Thanks!
In your 40-year extensive real world experience, are there any other engines with similar sludging issues ?
If you have taken apart the R18 Honda Civic engines in the past 5-7 years, could you please commend if these engines are prone to sludge or just varnish in case OCI is extended beyond 5K to 8K miles using dino oil and synthetic oil, respectively ?


No i haven't worked on newer Honda R18 engines. I don't use dino at all anymore, for the little difference in price (US prices) over the life of the car and the added benefits of synthetic i don't see any reason to.

I take a very old school and non scientific approach. I run 7500 on synthetic and if it still looks nice and shiny under the cover or through the fill hole i run with that OCI.
If it show any discoloration at all i drop it to 5K.
This is easy if you have a new engine to work with. Older engines i start with 5K and see if it begins to clean up, i get it clean than do the 7500 and see if it stays that way.

Some say follow the OLM but in my experience there are good ones and not so good ones.
If see the OLM is mirroring what i am seeing in the engine then i have no problem with them.
My GM is very conservative it comes on between 3 and 4K and if i drive it daily 5K so its not just based on time or miles.

At the price of oil in the US i don't bother trying to squeeze the last 1000 miles out it, its not worth the time and trouble to me.
There are a few known sludge engines out there, almost every manufacturer has had one at one time or another but they are not the norm.
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#3271197 - 02/05/14 10:55 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Zaedock]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 9795
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Running a nice syn like Mobil 1 to 5,000 miles is "A" choice, but not a good choice, IMO. If you're going to test anyway, add TBN to your report and you'll likely see you can go further.


I agree that there is no evidence that this oil suffered ill affects from this engine with a 5k OCI. Run it out to the max OLM and see what you have.
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 142,000 miles
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10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
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#3271214 - 02/05/14 11:06 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: tig1]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21076
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Running a nice syn like Mobil 1 to 5,000 miles is "A" choice, but not a good choice, IMO. If you're going to test anyway, add TBN to your report and you'll likely see you can go further.


So are you saying a UOA is better than an actual tear down in this instance? Trav posted pics of an actually tear down following the OLM using a Group III synthetic oil. The results were not good. In this situation I'd follow the advise of a pro who did actual tear downs of more than one engine, and ignore the OLM. Opinions vary.
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#3271553 - 02/05/14 04:16 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Sierra048 Offline


Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 264
Loc: Georgia
I'm asking for some leeway up front here for my ignorance. The OLM I'm assuming is the indicator that tells you it's time to change the oil. I don't understand how it works or what it bases its decision on that it is time to change the oil. Can someone help me out here? I drove my Jeep off the lot brand new with 6 miles on it. It currently has 38.2K miles. My OLM has come on twice since I've had it. I know how many times because I had to reset it. Since I don't know when it's going to come on again, I'll swag and say by 40k for discussion purposes. That's an oil change every 13.3K with conventional oil. There's no way I'd wait that long. It has had 8 OCI's to this point, one at 1.5K, one at 5k and every 5K after that religiously. Am I looking at this wrong?


Edited by Mfrank84 (02/05/14 04:17 PM)
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#3271569 - 02/05/14 04:31 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Sierra048]
rbarrios Offline


Registered: 05/28/10
Posts: 164
Loc: Los Angeles,CA
Dont know what kind of engine the Jeep uses.
But I ran Conventional (Valvoline 5W-30) in my 2003 Trailblazer (Inline 6)... for up to 11,500 mile oil change intervals...
at 172,000 the engine is still purring along....

The UOA's are posted on here somewhere.

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#3271615 - 02/05/14 05:19 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: rbarrios]
Sierra048 Offline


Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 264
Loc: Georgia
Jeep JK's have the 3.8l v6. It was originally installed in the Dodge/Chrysler minivans. It's supposed to be a well-tested, dependable engine and it's been around for quite a while. It's been great so far. I'm still confused as to what criteria the OLM uses to trigger an oil change. It won't know if I'm using the best synthetic oil and filter money can buy or Super Tech conventional with the cheapest oil filter. If this engine was prone to sludge like the OP of this thread, which I believe it's not, owner's of these engines could be in the same boat.
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#3272821 - 02/06/14 05:47 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Sierra048]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9612
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
It probably uses an algorithm that looks a various parameters such as coolant temp, possibly oil temp, ambient temp, average speed, idle time, engine run time, fuel trims and a few other things.
It gathers the information and tries to put a time and number to it. Some work better than others.

I know very little about Chrysler engines, in fact nothing at all outside general repairs, i wouldn't know one if it was sitting in front of me if it had no tags on it.
I good Chrysler forum may be the place to find out more about this engine and what its shortcomings or not are.
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#3284457 - 02/16/14 06:46 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
candoo Offline


Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 30
Loc: bowmanville, ontario
Hi everyone:

I just got o letter in the mail from Honda Canada in regards to a warranty extension on my 2013 Odyssey. It's entitled " Engine Misfire Due To Carbon fouling of Spark Plugs"

The problem, as stated in the letter, reads:

"On certain Honda vehicles equipped with V6 engines with Variable Cylinder Management (VCM-2) , the cycling of the cylinders under certain drive conditions allows for spark plug cooling, which may result in carbon fouling of the spark plugs. . When the fouling becomes severe, the Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) will come on, and one or more Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC P0301, P0302, P0303, or P0304) will be stored in the vehicles Powertrain Control Module."

Does anyone here know if this is the same problem being talked about on this thread, only from different vantage point? Is this problem in the warranty extension letter just an end result of not changing the oil often enough?

Thanks

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#3290227 - 02/22/14 05:53 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Indydriver Offline


Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 1297
Loc: Indiana
I have written extensively on this site about this issue. Honda VCM issues have nothing to do with oil other than it's "mysterious" disappearance. My interest stems from my daughter spending her hard earned money for her first car, a 2011 VCM V6 Accord EX-L, a car she truly loves. I have done all the oil changes on her car with a UOA on every change, also posted on this forum.

One of the first clues we got from Honda (other than many, many unhappy owners getting stonewalled by Honda and their dealer network, being told that a quart per 1000 miles was normal consumption) was a publicly announced "improvement" for MY 2011 engines that included new oil control rings and moly-impregnated piston skirts. It was at this time that Honda sent a very strong message to every single dealer that they MUST insist that all new VCMs be driven to 10% on the MM. Of course, what they didn't explain to customers was that this 7-8,000 mile interval on the FF was so the anti-wear molybdenum coatings on the pistons could dissolve and bond to reciprocating parts in hopes of reducing VCMs alarming oil consumption--the real problem. You see, it turns out ECMs controlling our engines are smart enough to enable VCM and make a six cylinder run unnaturally on three or four but, they are not smart enough to alter the laws of physics.

Honda finally acknowledged the problem and helped their poor dealers and customers they'd been lying to and stonewalling by issuing a service bulletin that identified the true source of the design failure: long highway crusing at steady state speeds that allowed extended cylinder shut down, differential cooling and the resulting blow-by shrunken oil control rings and a gradual emptying of the crankcase out the tail pipe.

Finally, after years of denial, lies and coverups (not to mention thousands of Honda loyalists swearing off the brand after being illegally denied warranty service on this design flaw), two individuals filed suit. You can read all the gory details in the documents found on the settlement site below so I'll just summarize here. One plaintiff had a V6 VCM and interestingly, one had a four cylinder--non-VCM, of course. They sued Honda together for excessive OIL CONSUMPTION. In the course of litigation and the wheeling and dealing to move toward a settlement, Honda won some very important (and obviously critical to them) concessions. #1, Honda forced the name of the problem to be changed from "oil consumption" to "engine misfire". You can figure out for yourselves what a monumental victory this was by their attorneys in limiting Honda's liability. #2 The "engine misfire" problem was then further restricted to certain engine codes. This legal victory means that only those customers who have been serviced at Honda dealerships and have saved their paperwork identifying one of the problem codes will be eligible for reimbursement of their repair costs. #3, the four cylinder family (and hence all non-VCM engines) was completely eliminated from the settlement! This eliminated millions of vehicles from potential warranty service or recall. It also means there's at least one other major additional design flaw in non-VCM engines that Honda has successfully covered up.

So the class action settlement that is still pending will reimburse VCM victims for repairs that they paid for at Honda dealer's if they can produce documentation identifying one of the service codes covered and it gives all other VCM owners warranty coverage extended to eight years from date of warranty initiation. The settlement is still pending because the judge mandated a period for public comment. Interestingly, Honda has baked another out into the cake. If 1000 VCM owners opt out of the settlement (a legal form has to be submitted by a certain date), Honda can back out. In other words, if they still have to deal with an avalanche of individual lawsuits, why settle at all?

Back to my daughter's 2011....given all this, I chose to follow and document factory recommendations to a Tee. So, we kept the FF in there until 10% which turned out to be about 6500 miles (my daughter drives 95% city, an important factor in this whole mess). The UOA, while heavily contaminated with break-in metals (starring 250+ of CU) still had acceptable TBN. The elevated moly from the piston skirt coatings was duly noted. I even purchased Honda brand full syn 0W-20 for my replacement oil to ensure Honda had no outs if we develop problems. The second OCI was again performed by me at 10% which again was around 6500 miles. As you would expect, metals were coming down and the TBN remained serviceable. Most importantly, the engine burned zero oil in these first 13,000 miles. During the second fill with Honda Genuine, we have begun to see some oil consumption I deem "normal" at about half a quart over 7000 miles. Interestingly, she used the car more on the highway during this time. I switched oil on the next (and current) fill to some SM TGMO hoping that it's unusually high moly content might give some added protection to this engine. That will be due to come out soon and you can bet I'll be getting that tested too.

So, to the OP, if he stuck with me through this much to long post at 6:00am on a Saturday morning, the issue really isn't oil change interval. I've proven to my satisfaction (and maybe yours) that MY VCM and the way WE use it can easily handle what the MM tells it to do. Given the legal situation, I believe it foolish to do otherwise. But, I've also proven with my own testing that the condition of the full syns Ive used is fine out to about 8,000 miles. The KEY is to check your oil level weekly. The real problems have come to this soccer moms who never open the hood between oil changes, drive 6-7000 miles and have their engines come to a grinding seizure because all the crankcase oil has flown out the tailpipe. And finally, sell this turd of an engine design before your warranty expires. Honda has more than proven to me that I cannot trust them to be honest and therefore I can no longer support their brands.

Good luck.

http://settlement-claims.com/enginemisfire/Notice.html


Edited by Indydriver (02/22/14 06:04 AM)
_________________________
2014 Camaro 2SS/RS LS3 Vert Dexos1 3500
2012 Sienna XLE 30,000 0W-20 TGMO
2011 Accord V6 30,000 0W-20 TGMO
2004 Intrepid 100,000 PP 5W-30

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#3290242 - 02/22/14 06:22 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Indydriver]
fpracha Offline


Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 479
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Back to my daughter's 2011....given all this, I chose to follow and document factory recommendations to a Tee. So, we kept the FF in there until 10% which turned out to be about 6500 miles (my daughter drives 95% city, an important factor in this whole mess). The UOA, while heavily contaminated with break-in metals (starring 250+ of CU) still had acceptable TBN. The elevated moly from the piston skirt coatings was duly noted. I even purchased Honda brand full syn 0W-20 for my replacement oil to ensure Honda had no outs if we develop problems. The second OCI was again performed by me at 10% which again was around 6500 miles. As you would expect, metals were coming down and the TBN remained serviceable. Most importantly, the engine burned zero oil in these first 13,000 miles. During the second fill with Honda Genuine, we have begun to see some oil consumption I deem "normal" at about half a quart over 7000 miles. Interestingly, she used the car more on the highway during this time. I switched oil on the next (and current) fill to some SM TGMO hoping that it's unusually high moly content might give some added protection to this engine. That will be due to come out soon and you can bet I'll be getting that tested too.

Good morning and Thanks for yet another great writeup here!
So if we summarize the FIX to be able to safely avoid the VCM and non-VCM honda engine troubles being discussed in this post, the fix you have identified is "to use high moly oils and simply top-up the engine oil even if just 50 ml is required, regularly and frequently" and definitely run the FF up to 10% of MM. Is this correct ?

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#3290247 - 02/22/14 06:31 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Trav]
Merkava_4 Offline


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 9164
Loc: Clovis, CA
Originally Posted By: Trav

This is from an 05 with verified 7500 mi OCI with synthetic.




That engine is done. No point in changing the oil anymore in that engine.

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#3290256 - 02/22/14 06:42 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Indydriver Offline


Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 1297
Loc: Indiana
More musings on the dreaded cylinder deactivation scheme....

VCM does give Honda an all important edge in the mpg game. They have a 15% advantage (that's a lot folks) in minivans for example. This [censored] "technology" is a response to one stimulus: CAFE standards. It is deplorable that government regulation forces automobile engineers to create designs they would otherwise abhor. It is interesting to me to see which of their competitors have taken the bait.

Toyota hasn't (yet). My wife insists on continuing to drive minivans even though our children are grown. We never considered the otherwise very fine Odyssey because they all come with VCM. We bought a Toyota Sienna despite the mpg disadvantage because we knew it didn't have VCM and in fact has a wonderful drivetrain featuring a normal and powerful six cylinder mated to an equally fine six speed auto trans. Great vehicle, highly recommended. [BTW 10,000 mile factory recommended OCIs on 0W-20 with no OLM!]

I am in the process of buying a new Camaro V8 and guess what? GM has taken the bait implementing their version of cylinder deactivation called AFM. Fortunately, they do NOT deploy it on manual trans LS3s which I prefer anyway. Apparently the new kids in charge of GM don't remember the first dismal failure of cylinder deact in the Cadillac line in the 80's that cost them millions.

History repeating itself. Sad. We will see if GM's computers are any smarter than Honda's. I doubt it.


Edited by Indydriver (02/22/14 06:43 AM)
_________________________
2014 Camaro 2SS/RS LS3 Vert Dexos1 3500
2012 Sienna XLE 30,000 0W-20 TGMO
2011 Accord V6 30,000 0W-20 TGMO
2004 Intrepid 100,000 PP 5W-30

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#3290262 - 02/22/14 06:53 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: fpracha]
Indydriver Offline


Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 1297
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Back to my daughter's 2011....given all this, I chose to follow and document factory recommendations to a Tee. So, we kept the FF in there until 10% which turned out to be about 6500 miles (my daughter drives 95% city, an important factor in this whole mess). The UOA, while heavily contaminated with break-in metals (starring 250+ of CU) still had acceptable TBN. The elevated moly from the piston skirt coatings was duly noted. I even purchased Honda brand full syn 0W-20 for my replacement oil to ensure Honda had no outs if we develop problems. The second OCI was again performed by me at 10% which again was around 6500 miles. As you would expect, metals were coming down and the TBN remained serviceable. Most importantly, the engine burned zero oil in these first 13,000 miles. During the second fill with Honda Genuine, we have begun to see some oil consumption I deem "normal" at about half a quart over 7000 miles. Interestingly, she used the car more on the highway during this time. I switched oil on the next (and current) fill to some SM TGMO hoping that it's unusually high moly content might give some added protection to this engine. That will be due to come out soon and you can bet I'll be getting that tested too.

Good morning and Thanks for yet another great writeup here!
So if we summarize the FIX to be able to safely avoid the VCM and non-VCM honda engine troubles being discussed in this post, the fix you have identified is "to use high moly oils and simply top-up the engine oil even if just 50 ml is required, regularly and frequently" and definitely run the FF up to 10% of MM. Is this correct ?

My advice is:

1. Avoid Honda altogether. In addition to their design flaws, they have proven to many loyal customers that they will stiff any customer to save a buck.
2. If #1 isn't possible, follow Honda's recommendations precisely and document it so that you cannot be denied warranty coverage should you need it. So if Honda says follow the MM, follow the MM and be sure you use the recommended oil type.
3. Above all, check your oil level frequently. After all, running out is much worse than using the wrong weight or conventional instead of syn. As noted by an earlier poster, all 0W-20s are either full or semi-syns.


Edited by Indydriver (02/22/14 06:57 AM)
_________________________
2014 Camaro 2SS/RS LS3 Vert Dexos1 3500
2012 Sienna XLE 30,000 0W-20 TGMO
2011 Accord V6 30,000 0W-20 TGMO
2004 Intrepid 100,000 PP 5W-30

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#3290269 - 02/22/14 07:13 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Indydriver Offline


Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 1297
Loc: Indiana
On the moly issue, I'm not qualified to tell you if it helps or not. I had some high moly oil in my stash and thought it logical to use it given Honda's desire to have it present in their FF. I would not recommend additives as that would violate Honda's recommendations.
_________________________
2014 Camaro 2SS/RS LS3 Vert Dexos1 3500
2012 Sienna XLE 30,000 0W-20 TGMO
2011 Accord V6 30,000 0W-20 TGMO
2004 Intrepid 100,000 PP 5W-30

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#3291133 - 02/22/14 09:56 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Indydriver]
fpracha Offline


Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 479
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
On the moly issue, I'm not qualified to tell you if it helps or not. I had some high moly oil in my stash and thought it logical to use it given Honda's desire to have it present in their FF. I would not recommend additives as that would violate Honda's recommendations.

Thanks again!

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