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#3265896 - 01/31/14 12:56 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Schmoe Online   content


Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 6355
Loc: Oklahoma
Don't know what the argument is all about, but pictures don't lie. What I don't get, the older pictures, the oil looked fried. But with VCM engaged, wouldn't the engine run cooler? As far as oil test goes, I'd think you'd see an upsurp in fuel dilution. When I do get a new honda with VCM, after reading this, I'd probably stick with a synthetic, but maybe not the M1 EP line, probably the "regular" synthetic stuff and change out at no more than 5K. Good to see Honda has windage trays in their oil sumps.
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#3265900 - 01/31/14 12:58 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Schmoe]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25671
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Don't know what the argument is all about, but pictures don't lie. What I don't get, the older pictures, the oil looked fried. But with VCM engaged, wouldn't the engine run cooler? As far as oil test goes, I'd think you'd see an upsurp in fuel dilution. When I do get a new honda with VCM, after reading this, I'd probably stick with a synthetic, but maybe not the M1 EP line, probably the "regular" synthetic stuff and change out at no more than 5K. Good to see Honda has windage trays in their oil sumps.


No, with one bank doing all the work, that bank apparently gets extremely hot. And it is the rear bank at that, the one with the least airflow over it.
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#3265908 - 01/31/14 01:10 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14265
Loc: Sunny Florida
Airflow over the engine block means little to the internal temp on most any vehicle. Likely has little to do with this particular engine's issues.

As always, it is worthwhile to note that Honda made a ton of these, and they don't all break down. Any mfgr that has big production numbers will have some rate of failure, it's very tricky to figure out the exact reason involved. Note that GM engineers told me face to face that they had a lot of trouble keeping their AFM engines HOT ENOUGH at highway speeds.

And anything I've had apart in the last ten years has a windage tray in it. You should see the beautiful welded up aluminum pan on the SRT with baffles and trays galore...


Edited by SteveSRT8 (01/31/14 01:11 PM)
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#3265937 - 01/31/14 01:47 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: SteveSRT8]
DuckRyder Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 1398
Loc: Atlanta


Additionally there were some part number changes for the heads on at least some vehicles I've not investigated what the changes were.

If someone could figure out what the actual UOA indicator is you'd probably be a bona fide Honda V6 hero, I suspect there that at least a consumer UOA isn't going to pick it up (at least not in time).

So that leaves us with other data.

Also unless you value your time at zero you have to "pay" yourself something in an ROI equation.
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#3266053 - 01/31/14 04:00 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: OVERKILL]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9166
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
AFAIK There are two versions of VCM that Honda use/d on the 3.5 iVTEC the first generation that only shut the rear off and ran on the front only a lot of the time.
On the 08 and later they used the VCM II that did that but also turned on one cyl on the rear bank on and turned one off on the front bank making a staggered V4.

While deposits were a little better controlled the system is more complicated and had the oil consumption issue also.
IMHO there is no such thing as ROI with less expensive oils or longer OCI with these engines. A little neglect and someone is paying the dealer or someone like me to clean it, rebuild it, or replace it if they are unfortunate enough to be out of warranty.

There are short life PCV issues also that were discussed in my old thread.
Even in warranty people like one poster here who i had a lot of email contact with had to go to war with Honda to get a partial warranty fix for this issue and IIRC he had dealer service and OLM OCI.
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#3266291 - 01/31/14 08:47 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Brybo86 Offline


Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 633
Loc: Chicago, IL
ok so Dave says that this engine MAY not destroy itself on Dino. basically Chris your decision to use synthetic based on other people's engines failing on Dino is a stupid decision....??

What you should have done is run really short OCI's on $13 a gallon Dino meanwhile getting UOA'$ everytime. extend these UOa'$ until the wear is alarming.

THEN and only then you will actually know how far Dino can go in your engine. not only will this cost significantly more then using synthetic at 5k OCI's, which has been shown to not harm the engine, but it will potentially damage your engine as Trac has said the engine will abruptly go into limp mode not some gradual red flag on a uoa

but hey at least you will have proof that appeases Lord dave

unless Dave is saying you should guinea pig your engine and cross your fingers that honda saves your bacon


Edited by Brybo86 (01/31/14 08:53 PM)
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#3266305 - 01/31/14 09:01 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Brybo86]
DragRace Offline


Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 2327
Loc: 1/4 Mile Track
Originally Posted By: Brybo86
ok so Dave says that this engine MAY not destroy itself on Dino. basically Chris your decision to use synthetic based on other people's engines failing on Dino is a stupid decision....??

What you should have done is run really short OCI's on $13 a gallon Dino meanwhile getting UOA'$ everytime. extend these UOa'$ until the wear is alarming.

THEN and only then you will actually know how far Dino can go in your engine. not only will this cost significantly more then using synthetic at 5k OCI's, which has been shown to not harm the engine, but it will potentially damage your engine as Trac has said the engine will abruptly go into limp mode not some gradual red flag on a uoa

but hey at least you will have proof that appeases Lord dave

unless Dave is saying you should guinea pig your engine and cross your fingers that honda saves your bacon


crackmeup

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#3266478 - 02/01/14 04:00 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Trav]
fpracha Offline


Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 473
Loc: MA
Yes thanks is due to Chris for posting and sharing useful information for all.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Thats the point they stop running on all cylinders. The day before that engine was running fine on all 6, it fell into eco mode and wouldn't come out of it.
My question is how would a UOA indicate this?

This is how it looked after cleaning, it runs great and staying clean on 5K synthetic OCI.

Thanks Trav for posting these pictures when "clean".

Originally Posted By: Trav
The older 3.5 iVTEC ones ran on 6 or 3 thats what causes the sludge/deposit/varnish issues.
The 08 IIRC and later had ring problems.

This is from an 05 with verified 7500 mi OCI with synthetic.
...The rear head with the VCM mechanism, it doesn't get as hot but varnish sticks everything.
...The valve that operates the VCM, oil pressure controlled and stuck with varnish.

Looking at these pictures at 7500 mi OCI with synthetic, so if one wants to use a Dino in the V6 VCM engine, is a 3000 mi OCI still going to produce the sludge and varnish problems ?
Then what is the maximum OCI when using a dino in the V6 VCM Hondas ?
Important - do we consider only Grp IV & V synthetics as synthetics for the V6 VCM Hondas, or will Grp III synthetics provide equally clean results during the 5K oci your have managed so far?

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#3266489 - 02/01/14 04:28 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
fpracha Offline


Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 473
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
How does the OP know, for sure, that 5k miles isn't too far, even for M1? How does anyone protect an investment, if zero markers are defined and met? You either know, or guess; there is no in-between.

So the OP likes his M1; fine by me. But don't claim it's doing a great job, when you cannot define what that means relative to the concern you have. If it's sludge you fear, how does this UOA show it's being kept at bay? If M1 is doing such a great job, then show me the marker that convinces one of that fact.

Like I said before and it is a fact that these engines don't do well on conventional oil going by the MM because it takes 7,000 miles at a minimum for the MM to hit 15%. The oil sludges by then and starts the build up. This is not my opinion and is well documented. My UOA shows steady wear trending down and low insolubles. I have a scope and can see pretty deep through the fill hole and it is spotless in this engine with no sign of sludge or oil problems. So yes, M1 is doing a good job and this is fact...

Some where between 5k and 7k is where this engine starts to have problems based on what owners are reporting.

So then the marker for using a synthetic in these V6 VCM honda engines is somewhere between 5000 and 7000 miles?
Or who would want to risk their engine to ascertain exactly when does a Dino "start failing" for this honda ? !!!

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#3266590 - 02/01/14 08:12 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: fpracha]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9166
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
This engine was run on a Grp III from 2005 till it stopped but that was 9 years ago, oils have improved a lot since then.

Mobil 1 0w20, 0w30, 0w40, 5w30 ESP, PU 5w20, PU 5w30 all have done a great job at keeping them clean. One has gone over another 100K since cleaning and it didn't make it much past 80K originally and its staying clean.

I cant say what other brands will do or wont do i haven't tried them but i understand DNewtons point. Under normal circumstances these are a very long life oils and draining them out a 5K would be a real waste but IMHO not on these particular engines and a couple of others.
Just from my own observations that front head runs hot, very hot! Honda changed it in 08 to add another cyl in the mix on the other bank and shut one off so they knew something was afoul IMO.

The other thing is, when the front cylinder begins to cook the tiny PCV gets clogged as does the valve covers internal passages and this just makes things worse.

The non VCM Honda 3.5 is a very good engine, smooth and powerful for a V6 with a nice power curve but these are a nightmare, IMO they ruined this great little engine then charged a premium for it, all for a of a couple of MPG.
What little was saved on fuel was eaten by shorter OCI, a ruined engine or a massive and expensive cleaning job. Thats called negative return on investment!

Valve cover front cylinder.


Location of PCV.


Tiny internally vented PCV valve.
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#3266712 - 02/01/14 10:27 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 20755
Loc: NY
Trav- Can the system that shuts the cylinders down in the older Honda engines be deactivated so it can run on all 6 cylinders all the time? It is pictures like these that keep me scratching my head about OLM's and these systems that deactivate cylinders in an attempt to save gas. I realize they're not all bad, in fact some are quite good. But I bet the owners of these Honda vehicles thought they were problem free when they bought them too. hide What sucks it many of these people found out when it was just a little too late.
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#3266777 - 02/01/14 11:39 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: demarpaint]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9166
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
No the VCM cannot be turned off and run normally, you get an oil pressure light and limp home mode albeit on all 6 cyl. People have been trying everything from unplugging sensors and solenoids, etc but to no avail.
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#3266905 - 02/01/14 02:31 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Trav]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 20755
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trav
No the VCM cannot be turned off and run normally, you get an oil pressure light and limp home mode albeit on all 6 cyl. People have been trying everything from unplugging sensors and solenoids, etc but to no avail.



Thanks- I thought so. Too bad a simple re-flash can't turn it off.
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#3266921 - 02/01/14 02:48 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Trav]
fpracha Offline


Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 473
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: Trav

I cant say what other brands will do or wont do i haven't tried them but i understand DNewtons point. Under normal circumstances these are a very long life oils and draining them out a 5K would be a real waste but IMHO not on these particular engines and a couple of others.
Just from my own observations that front head runs hot, very hot! Honda changed it in 08 to add another cyl in the mix on the other bank and shut one off so they knew something was afoul IMO.

Oh yes totally agree with Dave on his heated honest argument of 5K oci on a synthetic being a waste.... but when it comes to such troublesome engines, unless/until a mechanical solution is discovered or someone has done a detailed study to exactly calculate the precise maximum miles of "safe oci" for these (and other similarly troubled engine designs), it is safest to go with your current findings Trav.

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#3266922 - 02/01/14 02:49 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Trav]
Ramblejam Offline


Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 879
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Trav
No the VCM cannot be turned off and run normally, you get an oil pressure light and limp home mode albeit on all 6 cyl. People have been trying everything from unplugging sensors and solenoids, etc but to no avail.


Have you tried this, Trav?

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/52-2005-20...html#post730631

"1. OK, I looked and found for 2007 Odyssey EXL with VCM, the PN for the OPS is 37260-PZA-003.
It has bolt thread of M10 x 1.25 (see pic below).

2. Go to a hardware store and buy a "dummy" bolt M10 x 1.25 x 10 mm.
Check your OPS to be sure you need a bolt length of 10 mm.

3. Remove the OPS, keep the O-ring (washer).

4. Install the dummy bolt + O-ring (washer) and tighten it to spec.
This effectively seals the OPS hole so oil does not squirt out!

5. Now: re-attach the OPS to the connector (3-prong).
Cap the end with tape/zip tie to avoid dirt from entering the OPS.
By leaving the OPS attached to the wiring, this simulates an "Engine OFF" situation, which still sends some "voltage signal" to the PCM.
This way the PCM thinks:
a. The circuit is OK (i.e. no breach of the circuit)
b. "Sees" this as "not enough engine oil pressure" and
c. Therefore will not activate the VCM.

Hey this mod only costs $1 (the price of the "dummy" bolt)!"

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