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#3262409 - 01/28/14 08:51 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Schmoe Offline


Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 6452
Loc: Oklahoma
Just read that amsoil link...kind of hard to buy into something published by a manufacturer that is also selling its wares. Guess my 06 Accord that I sold at 202K and still on the road (it was time for the dreaded timing belt change AND the AT was starting to show signs of failure again) would not have made it that far with 12K OCI with M1 EP. REALLY surprised to read into the VCM Honda problems. Just about all Honda problems have come to light from other Honda owners and then Honda finally addressed them when it becomes crisis management. But I will say, they will at least address them. Look into Ford's blowing spark plug issue....Ford won't even acknowledge such a problem exist....google Ford blowing spark plugs and just look.
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#3262416 - 01/28/14 08:54 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: dnewton3]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26829
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
You guys still don't get it ... Let me simplify it in this manner with these questions:
What does a UOA show you that you can use as a marker to see when the issue in that engine family arises? Do you see a marked increase in wear metals? A huge shift in viscosity? What is it that the UOA gives you as a clue to know the probelm is afoot?


I don't think we have any data showing anything about it quite frankly. At least not that has been gleaned from UOA's. Somebody is certainly welcome to prove me wrong though.

Quote:
He is using the UOA as a toy rather than a tool.


As does about 95% of this site wink (and yes, I just made that statistic up)

Quote:
You cannot say the data shows this is a good choice, but then ignore the fact that the data shows no distinction between your syn and a typical dino oil. So, it the UOA data the basis of your markers, or not? Which is it?


I'm getting the impression that the UOA's on this engine leave us with a lot more questions than answers......

Quote:
But I find it irritating when folks mistakenly and carelessly apply incorrect conclusions.


LOL!! Welcome to BITOG, have a seat over there fine sir! grin

Quote:
That's not the basis of the website's purpose.


But that is mostly what goes on.

Quote:
BITOG is a great place to share data and experiments, and to challenge others to prove their position. We can learn from each other. It was not created to be a sounding board for hap-hazard opinions and whimsical conclusions, backed up by other self-congratulatory lube bigots.


I wish you the best of success in your endeavour to purge BITOG of this type of behavior. But a quick glance at many of the recent topics show that this type of thinking is alive and well. Have you visited the additive section lately? Holy cow poo Batman!! crzy

Quote:
but I am not sorry for speaking the truth about the use and misuse of UOA data, nor the wreckless conclusions thereof made.


And so what I am concluding from your rants and the various posturings of those in this thread is that the UOA's on this engine don't tell us about the presence or the lack thereof of the issue that Trav has observed first hand with them. And an even scarier extrapolation from that is that even if the lube appears to be healthy and fit for continued use, it may be allowing the build-up to occur. Of course that is a MAY situation, we have no proof for or against that statement. It seems we really don't have much quite frankly outside from a bunch of anecdotes and Trav's tear-down pictures of M1 0w-40 keeping one clean.

Does this mean that UOA's on this particular engine are essentially useless? shrug
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#3262418 - 01/28/14 08:56 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Schmoe]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26829
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Look into Ford's blowing spark plug issue....Ford won't even acknowledge such a problem exist....google Ford blowing spark plugs and just look.


Ford acknowledged the issue and was fixing it under warranty. They were also blaming it on the plugs being changed incorrectly though, not sure if they still are. They also approved the Lock-n-stitch insert as a repair.

What they didn't do was honour fixes on the issue outside of warranty. But that doesn't mean they didn't acknowledge the presence of the issue.
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#3262493 - 01/28/14 10:16 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Schmoe Offline


Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 6452
Loc: Oklahoma
Fixing it under warranty....pray tell....since when? There are quite a few forum sites that many owners, even with the extended warranty, that Ford said it was a spark plug problem and not a design issue and they denied warranty service. There only recommendation was total head replacements. Ford never acknowledged the helicoil as a fix. Ever. I for one would really like to see that information. A timesert is the only real solution to fixing the blow out, but after the blow out has happened. A lot of these engines were blowing plugs that were factory installed.
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#3262510 - 01/28/14 10:37 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Schmoe]
satinsilver Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 2915
Loc: Ohio
This is from a Honda tech on another forum regarding the 8th generation V6's:

Originally Posted By: ;1844129
do not listen to that bonehead regarding oil - you can use conventional oil. the manual does not state synthetic is required and whatever ANYONE else says doesn't matter. Honda will back the manual.

yes, you have a car that *can* be affected by piston ring issues. but these issues may not creep up because your driving style doesn't allow it to, such as short trips, heavy acceleration on a cold engine, driving in a manner that causes vcm to cycle rapidly...

an 8 year warranty on it is pretty generous on Hondas part to be honest. and I can't wait for it to expire because they are paying us [censored] money to replace piston rings on cylinders 1-2-3.



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#3262515 - 01/28/14 10:39 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Schmoe]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26829
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Fixing it under warranty....pray tell....since when?


When they were replacing the heads under warranty........

Quote:
There are quite a few forum sites that many owners, even with the extended warranty, that Ford said it was a spark plug problem and not a design issue and they denied warranty service. There only recommendation was total head replacements.


Yes, that's correct, the warrantied fix was head replacement, they didn't do any "fixes" to the heads at the dealership for a vehicle under warranty other than that. I did hear of cases where Ford denied warranty saying it was somebody changing the plugs and stripping the threads, but for ones with factory plugs, or plugs changed AT the dealer, they were covered and got a new head or heads.

Quote:
Ford never acknowledged the helicoil as a fix. Ever.


Luckily I didn't reference a helicoil then eh wink

Quote:
I for one would really like to see that information. A timesert is the only real solution to fixing the blow out, but after the blow out has happened. A lot of these engines were blowing plugs that were factory installed.


No, the lock-n-stitch insert is the only "real way" to fix the heads, according to Ford at least, who approved the repair. I had #8 done on my truck, at the dealer, with this insert. Heli-coils back-out, some inserts use dissimilar metals that affect the heat transfer function of the plug to the head.

I've also posted this document on here before, so I'm quite surprised you didn't see it.

http://www.locknstitch.com/sparkpluginserts.htm

Quote:

Now approved by Ford Motor Company.
You can read further information on our Ford thread insert products here:
Ford Triton Instructions (350KB)
Ford Technical Service Bulletin (52KB)


Originally Posted By: Ford

ISSUE
Various 1997-2007 vehicles with a 5.4L 2V, or 6.8L 2V engine with stripped or missing spark plug port threads in modular engine aluminum heads. Ford Motor Company now authorizes LOCK-N-STITCH aluminum inserts and tool kit.
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#3262740 - 01/28/14 02:31 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Schmoe Offline


Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 6452
Loc: Oklahoma
Seen nothing on the lock-n-stitch inserts. I know they would not allow helicoils...that's what they called them...in the early 01 and 02. Back then, and plently of other Ford brethren had this same problem early on, they only told the owners full head replacement, about that time, timesert came out. I remember there was a guy on the internet that would set up a date and time that would basically travel all over the US putting these in. He'd fly out to various cities and do a bunch, then fly to another city, etc. etc. That was around mid 2000's or so. There were so many complaints that Uncle Sam got involved and that's about where I dropped off from following. One thing I have summized is a lot of owners claim to hear a ticking sound prior to the plugs blowing out. I've been lucky with my truck, no blown plugs or tell tale ticking...but got to me honest, everytime I crank it up or drive on a long trip, I'm crossing my fingers. You say number 8 blew out....most have been number 4, furtherest back on passenger side and with Expedition, been some information that condensation drips right on top of that plug on that particular model by the way it was designed and that helped the plug start backing out.
_________________________
01 Supercrew Lariat 4X4
06 Accord EX V6
10 CRV EX-L
(traded 02 Accord EX V6 @ 208K miles for)
14 CRV EX-L
(traded 10 CRV for)


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#3262784 - 01/28/14 03:11 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: satinsilver]
DuckRyder Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 1585
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
This is from a Honda tech on another forum regarding the 8th generation V6's:

Originally Posted By: ;1844129
do not listen to that bonehead regarding oil - you can use conventional oil. the manual does not state synthetic is required and whatever ANYONE else says doesn't matter. Honda will back the manual.

yes, you have a car that *can* be affected by piston ring issues. but these issues may not creep up because your driving style doesn't allow it to, such as short trips, heavy acceleration on a cold engine, driving in a manner that causes vcm to cycle rapidly...

an 8 year warranty on it is pretty generous on Hondas part to be honest. and I can't wait for it to expire because they are paying us [censored] money to replace piston rings on cylinders 1-2-3.




Sounds like he wants customer pay time instead of warranty time...

In fairness it appears his post was in response to a dealer stating that:

Quote:
I have to use synthetic oil so that if a claim should manifest, I would be fully covered......ugh


The car in question is spec'ed for 0w-20. (is there a conventional 0w-20)?

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141065

So what I would find interesting if we could get past ford spark plugs, heli-coils and such is:

Do we think a UOA is going to ever pick the VCM issue up?
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  • 1996 Acura 3.5RL
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#3262820 - 01/28/14 03:46 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: DuckRyder]
satinsilver Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 2915
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
The car in question is spec'ed for 0w-20. (is there a conventional 0w-20)?

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141065


Yes, Honda labeled 0w-20 syn-blend.

http://www.bernardiparts.com/Honda-Motor-Oils__08798-90XX.aspx

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#3262857 - 01/28/14 04:29 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: satinsilver]
DuckRyder Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 1585
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
The car in question is spec'ed for 0w-20. (is there a conventional 0w-20)?

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141065


Yes, Honda labeled 0w-20 syn-blend.

http://www.bernardiparts.com/Honda-Motor-Oils__08798-90XX.aspx


Yes synthetic and synthetic blend but no conventional that I'm aware of...

Anyway...
_________________________
Robert
  • 1996 Acura 3.5RL
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100
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#3262862 - 01/28/14 04:39 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Schmoe]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26829
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Schmoe
Seen nothing on the lock-n-stitch inserts.


Well now you have smile

Quote:
I know they would not allow helicoils...that's what they called them...in the early 01 and 02.


They still say no to helicoils because there's nothing to hold them in. They'll often back out with the plugs, and there isn't much for them to dig into and so they often blow-out too. They aren't a good repair for this issue.

Quote:
Back then, and plently of other Ford brethren had this same problem early on, they only told the owners full head replacement, about that time, timesert came out.


Yup, I remember that too. The timesert and the lock-n-stitch have a few traits in common.

Quote:
I remember there was a guy on the internet that would set up a date and time that would basically travel all over the US putting these in. He'd fly out to various cities and do a bunch, then fly to another city, etc. etc. That was around mid 2000's or so. There were so many complaints that Uncle Sam got involved and that's about where I dropped off from following.


Yeah, I remember seeing posts about that on the fordtrucks forum, LOL smile

Quote:
One thing I have summized is a lot of owners claim to hear a ticking sound prior to the plugs blowing out.


Yes, that's exactly what happens. It sounds like an exhaust leak. I thought it was my cracked manifold. It wasn't.

Quote:
I've been lucky with my truck, no blown plugs or tell tale ticking...but got to me honest, everytime I crank it up or drive on a long trip, I'm crossing my fingers. You say number 8 blew out....most have been number 4, furtherest back on passenger side and with Expedition, been some information that condensation drips right on top of that plug on that particular model by the way it was designed and that helped the plug start backing out.


Sorry, it was #4, I had a Chevy firing order moment there for a second, LOL! last plug on the passenger side underneath the rear heat and A/C lines. It is also the worst plug to change on the engine, which I think may be a contributing factor, as it is very difficult to get the torque wrench or any wrench in there really. And you have a million feet of extensions, LOL! grin
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#3262982 - 01/28/14 06:27 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21696
Loc: NY
Is there something to look for in a UOA to see when sludge is gradually building up in an engine and there's no coolant leak or fuel dilution tagged in the report?
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#3263388 - 01/29/14 04:50 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5716
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Maybe; maybe not. Here are some things that would likely be unique:
- engine family
- specific condition of failure (coked rings, sludge in valvetrain, etc)
- specific lube used
- external contributors (driving style, duration of engine run time, etc ...)

You can look at insolubles or ox and nitration (lab dependent) but those are not an assurance. Each lube will have a different starting point for ox and nitration, so you'd have to know the VOA data as well as macro UOA data.

In the examples of the SL2 engines, the coking of the piston rings was localized, and the rest of the engine seemed fine. So the insolubles were not grossly out of range; there was no marker in "sludge" as we could recognize it. There was, as I already mentioned, a marker discovered in the oil consumption in macro UOA data. But there was nothing in micro UOA data to alert of the onset. The value of UOAs here was in other people's UOAs, not the individual UOA of one engine. The mass market response showed CLEAR delineation of oil consumption at certain exposure durations. In the SL2 engine, you'd be better off using conventional lubes and changing oil frequently, because it can be PROVEN where the onset starts (4k miles). Because there was not enough data for synthetic lubes, the OCI duration was a total swag in regard to PU. Why guess at a synthetic OCI when you can know the exact OCI for conventional oil, with proof beyond any shadow of doubt?

Additionally, not only does one need to know WHAT happens, but WHY it happens. Which conditions contribute to the onset of the problem? What conditions don't contribute? So, it seems the 3.5L engine here is prone to sludge? Fine, but when? What sets it up? Does it only happen to vehicles that experience long sustained drives where the heads get too hot? Does it happen only when short-hop driving occurs when oil never gets up to temp, but pools in the wrong place? Etc, etc ... Does this happen to every single 3.5L Honda engine out there? I doubt it! Rather, there are likely some contributing conditions that are unique, and must be paired up with other inputs (lube selection, OCI duration, environmental issues, etc). Under the right conditions, some engines may have a propensity to sludge, but not all.

Further, do we know with certainty that it's never happened in an engine that uses syns? Or, has that data not yet come to light? ANY LUBE can be used too long. So it's not a question of IF it would happen to a syn, but WHEN might it happen to a syn. It's the same question as to when it may happen to a dino lube, but perhaps with a different answer. As of now, I've seen not one person step forward with the "Ah-HA!" indicator proving beyond any doubt that they KNOW how to indentify it. You cannot avoid something you cannot predict, and you cannot predict something you cannot identify. Get it?

In this UOA, I see nothing out of the ordinary. But it's a snapshot and we all recognize that. I have not researched the data for the 3.5L for a marker, but this UOA seems completely in line with UAs. Meaning, the syn did nothing out of the ordinary at 5k miles. While entirely possible that syn is the right choice at 5k miles, there is no data to substantiate it, that I have yet to see. Which is why I have repeatedly asked the OP what markers he has discovered, if any at all, indicating he can correctly identify the onset of the condition he's trying to avoid. And, is that marker identifiable in micro UOA data, or macro UOA data, if at all?

The UOA here shows everything is fine. Or is it? Do we KNOW that the marker exists in the UOA data? If not, then how can one praise a lube and OCI as the correct choice if the indicator isn't even present? And, if the marker does not exist in the UOA micro data, then why pay for the UOA? Until someone discovers a marker that correctly identifies the onset, we can't make accurate, reliable predictions of OCI duration; it's all a swag until then.

Kind of my entire point, which seems to be lost on just about everyone ...


Edited by dnewton3 (01/29/14 08:38 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#3263587 - 01/29/14 09:38 AM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Chris B.]
Schmoe Offline


Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 6452
Loc: Oklahoma
About all of my Honda's called for 0-20....just couldn't do it...used and still use 5W-20...but then again I "normally" don't have to worry about low start up temperatures.
_________________________
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(traded 02 Accord EX V6 @ 208K miles for)
14 CRV EX-L
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#3263941 - 01/29/14 03:16 PM Re: 2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles [Re: Schmoe]
rbarrios Offline


Registered: 05/28/10
Posts: 164
Loc: Los Angeles,CA
can someone elaborate on what Honda engines/Yrs are having this issue mentioned above.
Also- VCM = ?

Just curious since owners bow to their Hondas and Toyotas.

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