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#3255864 - 01/22/14 04:10 AM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: Merkava_4]
KD0AXS Offline


Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 1681
Loc: Nowthen, MN
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Is propane primarily used in rural areas? I live in a suburban area and we're all warming up with natural gas.


Yep, there's no natural gas service where I live, so most homes around here use propane.
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#3255894 - 01/22/14 06:25 AM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: IndyIan]
Pop_Rivit Offline


Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 4636
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: IndyIan

OT
I really don't understand why more people don't have a woodstove though.
$3k installed, lasts forever, no major maintenance required, fuel grows on trees, needs no power, fuel storage for a year require no infrastructure, no price manipulation [censored], no taxes paid on the fuel(usually). Most people need the exercise of moving wood, or even processing if they want a real workout.


$3,000 gets me almost 5 years worth of propane. Add to that the purchase cost of the wood at $150-$200 per cord times about 4 cords per winter = $600-$800/year. Then I have to rig up a dry place to store it (let's say $200 worth of building materials and we'll amortize it over the 5 year period mentioned above).

So in the 5 year period mentioned above it will cost me between $1,840 and $2,040 each year, where I currently pay $700-$800/year for fuel.

There's also my time which has value. I have no desire to trudge out a couple times a day and get wood to stoke the fire and spend the time keeping the fire going. We also have a fairly large 4,200 square foot house, and a wood stove at one end means extremely cold temperatures at the other end of the house and in the basement unless we rig up a bunch of box fans. No thanks.

There's also the stink of burning wood, which I don't care for and don't want in the house. And my current HVAC system also filters and humidifies the air, which burning wood in a wood stove can't do.

There's also the insurance rate increase with burning wood because it's a higher risk for fire.

So maybe now you'll understand why many of us don't burn wood for winter heat. Unless you have access to cheap or free firewood it doesn't make sense, and even then it may not be desirable.

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#3255973 - 01/22/14 08:12 AM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: Pop_Rivit]
IndyIan Offline


Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 6556
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: IndyIan

OT
I really don't understand why more people don't have a woodstove though.
$3k installed, lasts forever, no major maintenance required, fuel grows on trees, needs no power, fuel storage for a year require no infrastructure, no price manipulation [censored], no taxes paid on the fuel(usually). Most people need the exercise of moving wood, or even processing if they want a real workout.


$3,000 gets me almost 5 years worth of propane. Add to that the purchase cost of the wood at $150-$200 per cord times about 4 cords per winter = $600-$800/year. Then I have to rig up a dry place to store it (let's say $200 worth of building materials and we'll amortize it over the 5 year period mentioned above).

So in the 5 year period mentioned above it will cost me between $1,840 and $2,040 each year, where I currently pay $700-$800/year for fuel.

There's also my time which has value. I have no desire to trudge out a couple times a day and get wood to stoke the fire and spend the time keeping the fire going. We also have a fairly large 4,200 square foot house, and a wood stove at one end means extremely cold temperatures at the other end of the house and in the basement unless we rig up a bunch of box fans. No thanks.

There's also the stink of burning wood, which I don't care for and don't want in the house. And my current HVAC system also filters and humidifies the air, which burning wood in a wood stove can't do.

There's also the insurance rate increase with burning wood because it's a higher risk for fire.

So maybe now you'll understand why many of us don't burn wood for winter heat. Unless you have access to cheap or free firewood it doesn't make sense, and even then it may not be desirable.


I suspect you don't really care if propane is $6/gal, that's fine, but many people do care about the price.
Also a modern wood stove doesn't release smoke inside the house and if you are burning properly you will barely notice it outside.
We have a pretty optimal land and house set up for wood burning so it works quite well as our main heat source, and it takes all of 5 minutes to bring in 2 arm loads and load the stove 3 times a day.
As a backup/alternative heat source I think its pretty hard to beat for many people, but it requires some manual skills, knowledge, planning, and some physical work which I guess makes it a "waste of time" for many.
I like doing it though, its fun to run the saw, and falling trees well is satisfying, as you are sort of making something from nothing even if you are just collecting wood from a friend in town when they need to have a tree taken down.
Its probably my only hobby that pays quite well too as our propane is always around $2.50/gal.
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#3255990 - 01/22/14 08:40 AM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: dlundblad]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 2669
Loc: Illinois
I've considered wood burning and frankly wish I had planted wood burning crop trees years ago but didn't. If I ever put in a wood burner though it would be one like this. wood gasifier or one like this Furnace/Boiler
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#3255993 - 01/22/14 08:40 AM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: IndyIan]
GaleHawkins Offline


Registered: 01/06/14
Posts: 395
Loc: Murray KY USA
The main $$$ reason locally to ditch heating with wood is the ability to find a property insurance carrier to write coverage in rural areas. There are health issues too.

With the EPA moves for 2015 may increase the cost so much (perhaps the plan) stoves are going to be expensive.

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#3256138 - 01/22/14 11:15 AM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: GaleHawkins]
IndyIan Offline


Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 6556
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
The main $$$ reason locally to ditch heating with wood is the ability to find a property insurance carrier to write coverage in rural areas. There are health issues too.

With the EPA moves for 2015 may increase the cost so much (perhaps the plan) stoves are going to be expensive.

We recently switched to a local rural based insurer due to my tractor and they added $100 for wood heating. Maybe many states don't have a woodstove inspector/installer certification program? As long as ours was installed by a certified tech, they were good with it.
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#3256430 - 01/22/14 03:07 PM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: dlundblad]
dlundblad Offline


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 4884
Loc: Indiana
I heard a lady at work paid 3.75 per gallon today. It's almost cheaper to heat with gasoline.. Somehow. O.o
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#3256503 - 01/22/14 04:22 PM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: dlundblad]
andyd Offline


Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 4333
Loc: Marshfield , MA
Yah, Propane is like heating oil only different. People use it where there are no gas lines. I would dearly love to be able to use it. I burn weed trees, mostly, choke cherry and locust. Both burn well. The cherry smells like maraschino cherries when it is split. Locust burns well too and makes great fence posts. So Pop Rivet,about how much did it cost to have the storage capacity you have installed? I wold love to buy at more favorable rates than my present situation
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#3256515 - 01/22/14 04:45 PM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: dlundblad]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 2669
Loc: Illinois
I have a 500 gallon tank and use about 250-300 gallons a year.

But the tank only gets filled to 80% and when it gets to 10% you should have a truck come and fill. So plan accordingly.
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#3256551 - 01/22/14 05:45 PM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: dlundblad]
rjundi Offline


Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 7253
Loc: USA
Apparently there is a such an excess or market pricing is attractive a local place is going to export it abroad.

Its unfortunate as a regularly dormant railroad line(maybe a train a week) is turning daily at the end of my property. At least the tracks are so rough that it cannot go faster than 10mph I believe.
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#3256777 - 01/22/14 08:41 PM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: KD0AXS]
Merkava_4 Offline


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 11945
Loc: Clovis, CA
Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
Yep, there's no natural gas service where I live, so most homes around here use propane.


To tell you the truth, I have no idea where the power company keeps their natural gas storage tanks.

All I know is it comes out of the ground and goes to a meter before coming into my house. shrug

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#3256880 - 01/22/14 09:56 PM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: dlundblad]
KD0AXS Offline


Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 1681
Loc: Nowthen, MN
Wait a minute, I seem to remember a thread a couple weeks ago where a picture was posted of a major traffic pile up. Smack in the middle of the mess was a propane tanker and people were all bent out of shape because trucks carrying hazardous materials were allowed to be on the road during inclement weather. Could you imagine how bad this shortage would be if propane suppliers were forced to park their trucks every time it snowed?
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2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited - PP 5W-20
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#3256906 - 01/22/14 10:23 PM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: dlundblad]
GaleHawkins Offline


Registered: 01/06/14
Posts: 395
Loc: Murray KY USA
I learned tonight we were able to get 175 gallon a $1.49 I think. One member said the home office has limits programmed into the pump computer.

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#3261577 - 01/27/14 01:41 PM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: dlundblad]
KD0AXS Offline


Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 1681
Loc: Nowthen, MN
Prices are now over $5/gallon. We're supposed to be getting our ration of 200 gallons sometime this week, but that's if they don't run out first. We have the thermostat set to 60 and the water heater down as low as it goes, and 4 electric space heaters going.

The MIL offered us her wood stove that's sitting unused at her cabin, but that's 125 miles away. Plus, I'd have to get a permit, install it, get it inspected, and pay higher insurance premiums.
_________________________
2005 Ford F-350 4x4 5.4 - Maxlife 5W-20
2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited - PP 5W-20
2000 Saturn SC2 - Maxlife NG 10W-40
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#3262169 - 01/27/14 11:59 PM Re: Propane shortage? [Re: dlundblad]
gman2304 Offline


Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 1265
Loc: n.c.
In a word....GREED!!!

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