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#3253644 - 01/20/14 03:08 AM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: qnyla]
gaijinnv Offline


Registered: 02/14/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Nevada, USA
Looks can be deceiving:



Just go by what the restriction gauge tells you thumbsup

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#3253701 - 01/20/14 07:28 AM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: nickolas84]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
Yet more graphic examples! I'm inclined to ask people to take pics of their used filters and their restriction gauges to show that dirty looking doesn't necessarily equate to high restriction.
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#3253755 - 01/20/14 08:35 AM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: Jim Allen]
nickolas84 Offline


Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 31
Loc: Greece
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: nickolas84
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
... high DP tends to start pulling dirt thru.

I guess there is an element of time, typical testing do not account for.
Is it different to load up a filter in few hours or minutes to loading up over thousand of hours in opperation?
I mean regular testing indicates that a filter only clogs up as time passes and DP increases. Are there tests that prove that prolonged average to high DP (let's say from 10'' all the way to 25'') doesn't damage the filtering media in a way that allows dirt to pull through?

Good question.

It's essentially the same, though long term over-the-limit DP likely has a worse effect than short term exposure. It only stands to reason.

If you are staying within the design limits, the answer is no, IMO. I haven't seen any tests exactly like you wonder about but but design limits are design limits, safety factors are safety factors, and if the manufacturer rates the filter for a certain DP, then one assumes they have done the proper testing. A 15" DP is generally accepted industry-wide number for gassers, though there could be variations. In the cases where I have read about pull-thru, it was in extreme cases with very high DP. A certain amount of durability is built into the filters as a safety factor. Wouldn't it be great to know exactly what that is in each case?


Somehow I fear manufacturers haven't done this testing. It could be as simple as filter testing used filters like the one mentioned in your article. That would be anecdotal evidence but good enough for me!

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#3254732 - 01/21/14 07:24 AM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: nickolas84]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
Originally Posted By: nickolas84


Somehow I fear manufacturers haven't done this testing. It could be as simple as filter testing used filters like the one mentioned in your article. That would be anecdotal evidence but good enough for me!


I know from being told by industry people that QC testing of all types is done regularly. But you have to realize that there is a lot of established engineering practice out there. They know a lot about filter design and that reduces the amount ot testing that needs to be done. In many cases, the media is rated by the manufacturer to the company that actually builds the filters to meet certain engineering specifications... including efficiency and structural (often the media comes from outside sources). No doubt there are spot checks but there is enough established engineering practice with air filters that many (if not most) design issues are known and accounted for by standard practice. It might be known, for example, that X media design built in Y fashion takes 30" H2O to collapse or start pulling dirt thru. They rate the FCI DP at 15" and determine that occurs at or past the normal vehicle manufacturer's recommended FCI so there is a lot of safety factor built in. The parameters might be checked occasionally. Nobody can account for el-cheapo companies putting out substandard products or neglectful owners who just never bother to service their cars.
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#3255194 - 01/21/14 02:29 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: nickolas84]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8051
Loc: NorthEast
Jim,

Without a restriction gauge, is there some engine parameter that you can look to deduce that filter needs replacing? This assumes that we do not know the manufacturer specified maximum flow rate. All we know is the size of the engine and whether it uses MAP sensor or MAF sensor.

Thanks

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#3255209 - 01/21/14 02:47 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: qnyla]
Malo83 Offline


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1030
Loc: Cali
Originally Posted By: qnyla
I wonder how often I should be changing my air filter in these conditions?



Sooner than Later cheers

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#3255244 - 01/21/14 03:20 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: Vikas]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
Interesting question.

I don't know for sure. Possibly you could interpret from MAP readings if you knew the values at full throttle with a clean filter. Possibly the same from MAF. It could be figured out but with easy access to inexpensive restriction gauges, why bother unless it just wasn't possible to mount them.

You could probably use some measurable performance parameter too, such as a dyno, quarter mile or 0-60 times, but there are so many variable in those things (temps, atmospheric pressure, etc.) that I wouldn't consider them particularly exact or reliable.
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#3255713 - 01/21/14 09:31 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: Phishin]
mr_diy Offline


Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 222
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Phishin
Originally Posted By: nickolas84
I am refering to stock type "paper" filters. It is common knowledge that the dirtier it becomes, the better it filters.
Should we ever change our stock air filter unless there is a reduction in power?

2.) air will begin to "channel" through the filtering media, finding a pathway of least resistence. Perhaps it starts at a small imperfection in the media. Once the air begins to channel through the media, the "hole" will expand. The air that passes through this channel isn't really filtered at all.

I previously had neglected to change an original air filter (~80k) and after running a OA and getting a rather high silicon reading, I changed it out and the next OA had one third the silicon level. That original filter did not look bad, so maybe it was channeling.

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#3256316 - 01/22/14 01:44 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: mr_diy]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
[
I previously had neglected to change an original air filter (~80k) and after running a OA and getting a rather high silicon reading, I changed it out and the next OA had one third the silicon level. That original filter did not look bad, so maybe it was channeling.


Possibly. Other possibilities are a poor fit in the housing (maybe from being removed a few times). It might have been cleaned at some point and damaged. It's also possible the filter you replaced it with is more efficient.

Most likely iIMO is just the variables of comparing only two UOAs. Unless the differences were significant (say over 25%) it could be simple testing variables. Comparing two tests does not result in very accurate comparisons. To "see" small differences, you need trending. Lots of UOAs in each condition.
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#3256466 - 01/22/14 03:50 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: nickolas84]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5564
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Much of this talk has me wondering how I could fit a filter DP gage into my GL1800 ...

Why? two reasons:
1) the OEM filter FCI is a measly 12k miles. Seriously. And it's about as big as any filter I've seen in a Civic. Many of us suspect it's just a way for the dealer to get some money generated from service, because these bikes never break as a general rule. If it were not for valve clearance jobs and air filter changes, they'd never be in the shop. Air filter every 12k miles ... would you put up with that if it were your car?
2) they are STUPID hard to get to; it takes about and hour if you're good at it! You have to take off the tupperware (all the plastic) surrounding the top half of the engine, unhook the nav controls and radio, unscrew various stuff. Total PITB. When done, you have to reconnect the ECM and let the bike cycle to full temp and turn on the fans for goodness sake!

I have noted that even at 20k miles, there seems to be no real effect in performance or such. But I could really benefit from KNOWING when to change, rather than guessing.

I might experiment with a remote location filter minder. I'd have to plumb in a fitting, but then use hard line vacuum tubing to put the gage in a place where it could be read. After all, what good is having the gage installed if you cannot read it easily? Putting it under "hood" with all the other junk still would necessitate taking everything apart to get to it. And I'm not even sure it would fit under there.

Jim - got any suggestions for the plumbing fittings and line? I'd be willing to be a test mule here; it's worth the effort to save myself the grief!


Edited by dnewton3 (01/22/14 03:54 PM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#3256494 - 01/22/14 04:10 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: nickolas84]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26309
Loc: a prison island
dnewton,
there's a remote kit on Amazon that I was looking at
http://www.amazon.com/Air-Filter-Restriction-Gauge-AFG30/dp/B009VGLIZ0

Was thinking that I could fit one (or similar) near where I fill up for fuel...I'm there every couple of weeks.

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#3257567 - 01/23/14 02:40 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: nickolas84]
afoulk Offline


Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 1078
Loc: Palmyra, PA
If you were to find a restriction gauge with a threaded female end, you could use push lock fittings and some 1/4" plastic air line from a truck repair shop and then you could mount it anywhere you want. We see Mack trucks from the factory with restriction gauges mounted in the dash and use the fittings and line I described to hook it up to the air cleaner. Sadly, I'm the only one in our shop that actually looks at the gauge. Everyone else just yanks the filter and replaces it because it looks dirty. I see Donaldson powercore filters get replaced all the time with only 30000 - 60000 miles on them.
_________________________
2012 Scion XB 5spd

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#3257898 - 01/23/14 07:48 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11164
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
there's a remote kit on Amazon that I was looking at

That's not cheap, but it is pretty cool!
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3258568 - 01/24/14 11:44 AM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: nickolas84]
nickolas84 Offline


Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 31
Loc: Greece
What about weighting your air filter as a poor man's restriction gauge?
Assuming that the airfilters capacity is 300gr if one finds 100gr increase in weight, then he can keep the filter 50% longer, or install a new one and keep it 50% longer, and still be on the safe side.

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#3259005 - 01/24/14 08:03 PM Re: Should you ever change your air filter? [Re: nickolas84]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5564
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
If you're speaking of my situation, it's because of the incredibly difficult ingress/egress issues ...

If you've never worked on a GL1800 Goldwing, it's a total nightmare and I don't exaggerate when I say it's easily an hour job just to get in, and then about the same back out. I kid you not.
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
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