Fresh Oil = Stripped AW ???

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I've seen this mentioned many times the past few weeks. Makes no sense to me.

People claim that fresh oil strips their engine of AW additives like ZDDP and Moly.

So using this theory, do AW additives just not "stick" until oil gets older? LOL!!!! What kinda myth is this line of garbage?
 
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Why not? The detergents are the strongest in a fresh oil and they will strip the additives bonded to the metal.

That is why the gurus on this site keep on telling people that they have to look at an oil as a package not singling out any single aspect of the formulation. Lots of detergents will clean out the engine some, but will also fight with the additive pack for the surface, too little and the additives will bond nicely, but so will the deposits. A successful oil formulation will have a good balance to ensure proper level of additive protection and engine cleanliness.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Why not? The detergents are the strongest in a fresh oil and they will strip the additives bonded to the metal.

That is why the gurus on this site keep on telling people that they have to look at an oil as a package not singling out any single aspect of the formulation. Lots of detergents will clean out the engine some, but will also fight with the additive pack for the surface, too little and the additives will bond nicely, but so will the deposits. A successful oil formulation will have a good balance to ensure proper level of additive protection and engine cleanliness.


I agree look at the oil and its additive as a package. Resist being an armchair chemist.
 
I thought it stripped some of it, not all. Then get some miles/time/heat for the fresh oil to build up some layers, to a point.
And (I think) titanium oils provide Ti layer sooner.
 
Over time, used oil forms an anti-wear layer over the metal surfaces as the anti-wear additives win the battle with cleaning agents.

When new oil is added, cleaning agents are at their strongest and they remove the pre-existing anti-wear layer in the beginning. This is why engine wear increases immediately after an oil change.

A constant battle always brews between the cleaning and anti-wear detergents, and as the cleaning agents slowly wear down, an anti-wear layer slowly builds up over time.
 
This theory has been around since the beginning of BITOG. I don't think there's any metal to metal contact with the new oil, fortunately.
 
Originally Posted By: Phishin

People claim that fresh oil strips their engine of AW additives like ZDDP and Moly.



That theory is for know nothing idiots. Oil chemists create additive packages that don't fight themselves. Fresh oil has fresh detergents but also has fresh AW additives. The boundary layer is immediate. There was some old guy at GM spouting this theory...simply not true. Then again lots of people still buy oil "stabilizer" because their oil is "unstable".....
crackmeup2.gif
 
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So the detergents in my oil are doing battle with the anti wear additives? The anti wear additives just lie there in suspension and wait for the detergency of the oil to pass? Unless a petroleum engineer can show me evidence of this, i call it overthinking on the part of some BITOG members.
 
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There are enough UOAs for different engines at different OCIs to prove this out to a point. Wear is always greater when the oil is new and tapers off as the oil ages. Whether it is due to the AW layer being stripped is debatable, but the fact that a longer OCI until the point of condemnation produces less wear metals is not. Look at some UOAs and you will see it for yourself.
 
I don't know that I buy these kinds of claims. Are they coming from chemists or speculators?

I would agree that highly polar adds might compete for surface with otherolecular species, but that's only certain portions of the dad pack in certain oils.

No hard and fast rule.
 
We also have to look at most race oils and dedicated break in lubes. They tend to have exceedingly high AW packages with little to no detergent package. And given the cost of these things, I doubt they cut the detergent package to save a bit of money. Oil companies don't care if we change oil prematurely.

Where's Mola when we need him?
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Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Look at some UOAs and you will see it for yourself.


I've seen plenty, and I agree that (to a point) usually longer OCI's results in lower ppm/mile of wear metals.

But I just don't think this phenomenon is attributed to the fact that AW additives are being washed off with fresh oil. Lunacy, if you ask me.

Originally Posted By: Garak
We also have to look at most race oils and dedicated break in lubes. They tend to have exceedingly high AW packages with little to no detergent package.


I've thought of this Garak. I have no explanation for it. It's the only valid counter-point I could come up with.....
 
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Originally Posted By: Phishin
I've thought of this Garak. I have no explanation for it. It's the only valid counter-point I could come up with.....

Let's put it this way; until we hear from a resident expert on the matter, I suspect there is competition between detergency and anti-wear. Oils are a balancing act. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean that new oil is like liquid sandpaper, nor that an oil is in danger of sludging the heck out of your engine at the end of its service life.

I would highly doubt that changing oil, say, every 3,000 miles or sooner on a modern engine with a modern detergent motor oil is going to cause any measurable premature wear. Just like guys looking for enhanced ZDDP, this would really only be an issue for very specific niche applications. For racers or an old school break in, sure. For you and me and the vast majority of us here, not an issue.
 
The temporary loss of AW qualities when new oil is installed and how wear actually decreases as the oil ages, is a scientific fact. And the effects have been described in detail here at BITOG, and even linked to. The last time, I think that was done by dNewton3. You can see the SAE Synopsis HERE for the most recent paper and buy the paper, as Dave and I both did, to see the details. It's an eye opener.

So, it's not a myth. But is it a huge deal? Not really... IMO... but the effect is there and wear IS higher right after an oil change than it is at around 3K miles when the new oil has stabilized and laid down a new barrier.

The AW chemistry is the "backup" to the hydrodynamic that is the primary wear-preventing process. A lightly used engine that isn't cold started an excessive amount is less likely to need that backup as much as one that is used harder. A diesel might need it more than a gasser in everyday light use. I'd say the effect are cumulative over time and really apparent only for people that change oil too often, short hop/cold start a lot but also keep their car long term. I think the effect probably would show up as an engine that needed repair earlier than most others of the same type and maybe that's after the original owner has traded in. Some engines might be more vulnerable to certain types of wear that a strong AW package protects them from (old school engine with flat cams, ball rockers and timing chains). I don't see it as a huge deal for most of us but it's an undeniable fact.
 
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So in a short tripper with lots of cold starts, in a cold climate, changing the oil "early" is a bad idea, or good idea (say changing based on severe service length of time versus mileage)

I guess it comes down to condensation, fuel dilution, and impact to oil that rarely sees operating temps for extended periods. Not to mention engine characteristics and driving style.

I would guess those variables outweigh new detergent?
 
Why is this so hard to believe for some members to the point when, without any evidence on their part, they ridicule the whole idea?

Plenty on here recommend certain oils to clean up sludge and varnish. So if fresh oil can remove some varnish and sludge, what's so special about a few molecules thick additive layer?
I'm not a chemist, but this phenomenon should be easy to grasp, provided one approaches it with logic as well, instead of ridicule
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I read here a while back that the fresh oil with the fresh add pack does some cleaning of deposits that accumulated during the prior OCI. That cleaning frees up wear metals that might have been trapped in those deposits. That could be the cause for a slight spike in wear metals early on in the OCI. That also made sense to me.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Why is this so hard to believe for some members to the point when, without any evidence on their part, they ridicule the whole idea?

Plenty on here recommend certain oils to clean up sludge and varnish. So if fresh oil can remove some varnish and sludge, what's so special about a few molecules thick additive layer?
I'm not a chemist, but this phenomenon should be easy to grasp, provided one approaches it with logic as well, instead of ridicule
wink.gif



I ask questions. If a new idea doesn't jive with how I see the world, I ask questions. If the new idea is shown to be true, then I adjust my view of the world accordingly. This is how I live. This is how I learn. This is how I grow.

But you gotta have an inquiring mind, have a thirst for the truth, and be humble enough to admit that you don't know everything.

I try to live by all these ideas.

Jim Allen made his point. However, like he kinda alluded to, there are SO MANY factors to be considered when pondering "am I causing more wear to my engine by changing the oil early."

One extreme example is in my Honda Ruckus scooter. I know, it's a scooter. I know, it's only 50cc. But from the hundreds and hundreds of people that I have contact with online who own these scooters, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to have 17k miles on my scooter and haven't had to change a crank bearing or even adjust the valves....the valves are still perfectly in spec.

Out of those 17k miles, I've done AT LEAST 30 oil changes. I've never gone past 600 miles!! This engine spins between 9k-10.5k over 90% of it's life.

My point being in all this: Have I caused extra wear in my little Honda engine by changing the oil too often? No way. What I did prevent was the oil from shearing out of grade (causing increased wear) and prevent excessive fuel dilution (causing increased wear). The "extra wear" I caused by pouring in new/fresh oil almost constantly is TINY compared to the extra wear that would have been caused by running the oil out to 2000-3000 miles like most people do.

I guess I need to read the paper that Jim Allen alludes to....to make sure the increased "wear" these guys are seeing with fresh oil can't be contributed to the fresh detergents cleaning up sloughed off metals embedded in varnish/varnish that the new oil is removing. This was alluded to by early by demarpaint.
 
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I read here a while back that the fresh oil with the fresh add pack does some cleaning of deposits that accumulated during the prior OCI. That cleaning frees up wear metals that might have been trapped in those deposits. That could be the cause for a slight spike in wear metals early on in the OCI. That also made sense to me.


This sounds possible...

As already mentioned, I consider this more wear just after a OC as lunacy...
 
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