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#3251573 - 01/17/14 07:55 PM Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil
Hurst89 Offline


Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Midway, Ky
I got this oil analysis back for my Allis Chalmers 301. A little background on the engine. It is a 2900 series engine, which is 301 cu in wet sleeve diesel. It is a later model with copper injector cups instead of copper washers in the head. I rebuilt it at 5900 hrs, which was a little over 400 hours ago because a copper injector sleeve started leaking and it got bad where the antifreeze was in the bottom of the pan and ate started doing damage to the original bearings. This time around, I was working it hard with a disc harrow when it started to puke coolant (only at about 210-220 degF). When I got out while I left it idling around 1500 rpms to cool down, I noticed that the blow by tube had some condensation on the tip and the blow by was excessive and very white/steam-like. The head was retorqued right after the rebuild. The sleeves all measured with enough protrusion. Everything inside the block was replaced and the head had the leaking injector cup/sleeve replaced with a new one and pressure checked fine and was still in spec (no machining needed). I am being told leaking sleeve o-ring, but I am still thinking I have a lingering head problem based on the history. Any ideas for a way to differentiate besides dropping the pan and doing a pressure test (and hoping it leaks while it is no very hot) and watching the bottom of the sleeves for any leaks? Is there an additive/test kit that can detect combustion gasses?

Link to oil analysis

Thanks in advance,

Hurst

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#3251603 - 01/17/14 08:30 PM Re: Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil [Re: Hurst89]
Hurst89 Offline


Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Midway, Ky
Here are the results of the oil analysis in case the link doesn't work:

Cu 39
Fe 35
Cr 1
Al 3
Pb 3
Sn 1
Si 12
Na 155
K 196
Mo 236
Ni 0
Ca 1470
Mg 822
Zn 1202
P 997
Soot 10 (ct/mL)
Oxidation 23
Nitration 13
Sulfation 30
Water: Negative
Antifreeze: Positive
Fuel: Negative
V100 14.4

This was at 115 hrs on the JD plus 50 15w40

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#3251721 - 01/17/14 10:45 PM Re: Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil [Re: Hurst89]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14644
Loc: Midwest
Questions:

1) How much sodium or potassium is in the original oil, aka, you need a new oil analysis (VOA).

2) Have the heads and block been "decked" to make sure the heads and block have flat surfaces?


Edited by MolaKule (01/17/14 10:45 PM)
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#3251730 - 01/17/14 10:57 PM Re: Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil [Re: MolaKule]
Hurst89 Offline


Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Midway, Ky
Here is a VOA of JD plus 50 15w40 (from a while ago, but the UOA for the newer stuff still doesn't show high sodium or potassium):

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=477257

So sodium and potassium definitely elevated.

When I overhauled the engine, I had the shop check the head, and was told it was within spec. I checked the block with a machinist straight edge and also the sleeve protrusion, and everything was within spec of the service manual. The engine held together for 430 hours without any issues, including hard work and getting up into 210 degrees on hot summer days working hard, so this was nothing it hadn't done until it started showing signs of coolant burning. That's not to say warping isn't my problem this time around. Last time they found an injector copper cup that was leaking when they pressure tested the head and it didn't come back with any other flaws requiring attention. Does high sodium/potassium with no water in the pan generally point to top-end problems?

Hurst


Edited by Hurst89 (01/17/14 11:04 PM)

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#3251906 - 01/18/14 08:17 AM Re: Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil [Re: Hurst89]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
Does the engine have a water-to-oil oil cooler? If so, it might be worth a check.
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#3252037 - 01/18/14 11:20 AM Re: Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil [Re: Jim Allen]
Hurst89 Offline


Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Midway, Ky
It does have a water-oil cooler, but the coolant system is only a 7psi system where the oil pressure on these engines while running is 30-40 psi, so I feel like I would see the oil in the water if it was leaking.

Hurst

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#3252305 - 01/18/14 05:51 PM Re: Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil [Re: Hurst89]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
Generally you are right but a few years ago I saw an old Farmall that dribble into the oil after the engine was shut off and the cooling system was hot. Not a lot but he never noticed oil in the coolant. Been in the back of my head ever since. WHen the cooler was removed and pressure tested, it had an obvious leak.
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#3253318 - 01/19/14 06:13 PM Re: Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil [Re: Jim Allen]
Hurst89 Offline


Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Midway, Ky
I did a pressure test today, and that did find a leak in the radiator, but the coolant system was still building up to about 5-6 psi rather quickly under WOT runs (very exciting in a tractor grin) up and down the road. I would bleed off all the pressure in the system when it was up to temp and had been for about 10-15 minutes, then I ran the tractor up and down the road for about 2 minutes and would check my pressure gauge on the pressure tester. It would build right up to 5-6 psi (that was when I found the leak in the radiator at the core/tank joint). Coolant was a little frothy right on top, but not a full layer of foam or bubbles in the radiator. I cleaned and checked again, and the head gasket is definitely seeping around where the rocker arms are, so I am wondering if the head bolts lost some of their torquing after the initial retorque done after the first heat cycle post-rebuild? I am thinking tomorrow I will pop the valve cover and see if the head bolts are still up to snuff on torque. Doubt it will do much to help save a gasket, but at least I will have a good idea of why there is coolant in my oil...

Hurst

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#3253929 - 01/20/14 11:56 AM Re: Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil [Re: Hurst89]
Hurst89 Offline


Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Midway, Ky
Worked on it some today, and found all the head bolts on one side of the head (the side that was weeping oil) had worked loose some. Not hand tight, but it took about 10 degrees to get them back up to torque, so that would be a good bit of clamping force gone. What is the best thing to do? Tighten them, drain the oil, run it again for a few hours and recheck the oil for antifreeze? Or, do you think the damage had already been done and I need to replace the head gasket and have the head checked?

Hurst

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#3258652 - 01/24/14 01:07 PM Re: Allis Chalmers test positive for antifreeze in oil [Re: Hurst89]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Hurst89
Worked on it some today, and found all the head bolts on one side of the head (the side that was weeping oil) had worked loose some. Not hand tight, but it took about 10 degrees to get them back up to torque, so that would be a good bit of clamping force gone. What is the best thing to do? Tighten them, drain the oil, run it again for a few hours and recheck the oil for antifreeze? Or, do you think the damage had already been done and I need to replace the head gasket and have the head checked?

Hurst


Does ARP make a head stud kit for it by chance? Might be an idea to upgrade if they do.

And personally I'd do exactly what you stated: See if the leak persists after tightening them. IIRC, this is why many manufacturers recommend a re-torque after a number of heat cycles.
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