Amsoil claims that filters can't filter additives

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I'm planning to regularly clean the oil of both my car and motorcycle through a fine 1 micron filter. After hearing of stories where filters strip additives from the oil I contacted Amsoil to ask them if my 1 micron filter would strip their additives, here is the answer:
Quote:
Stefan,
No filter system available on the market for cars can strip additives from oil.

Ashley Barone
AMSOIL Technical Services Representative


Does that mean that the size of additives is the same as oil?
 
Why???

IMO youll introduce more contamination removing and putting the oil through a filtration process than youll get out. Unless you have a permanently sealed, continuous process, junk will get in.

Most additives are soluble in the oil, which is why you dont pull anything out. If you put salt water through a 1um filter, would you remove salt?
 
1 micron sized particulate do absolutely no damage nor do they contribute to wear.
I thought about putting a twin filter by-pass set up on my charger and after countless hours of research and figuring out the cost of the unit vs potential savings down the road I learned a lot about particle size and wear and if course extending drain intervals based on the oil staying clean and what I discovered is that the only time by-pass filtration pays off is on big diesels with multi-gallon sumps.
Because the oil is filtered better and remains clean longer so drain intervals can be extended almost indefinitely as long as there are top ups that add tbn to the sump load of oil.
By-pass systems are an investment in that type machine because they save money in oil changes.
When you consider my forklift for example needs 4 gallons of oil iirc a by-pass system could easily double my drain intervals and when I start adding up 4 gallon changes at a time the dollars add up very quickly.
Other than that type of environment there's no need for filtration like that. The reward is minimal at best.
Iirc the particulate sizes that do the most damage are from 10-20 microns. Smaller than that doesn't cause any harm and larger tend to get filtered out in short order.
 
Originally Posted By: Ansky
I'm planning to regularly clean the oil of both my car and motorcycle through a fine 1 micron filter. After hearing of stories where filters strip additives from the oil I contacted Amsoil to ask them if my 1 micron filter would strip their additives, here is the answer:
Quote:
Stefan,
No filter system available on the market for cars can strip additives from oil.

Ashley Barone
AMSOIL Technical Services Representative


Does that mean that the size of additives is the same as oil?


This is not an original Amsoil declaration folks.

The original data came from an article in last month's STLE publication, TLT.

Quote:
Does that mean that the size of additives is the same as oil?


Soluble additives have molecules in the nanometer range. No filter can selectively remove additive molecules.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
This is likely not doable as a DIY project without tremendous resources


I'm not planning a continuous filtration system. The system I'll be using is basically periodic oil cleaning by gravity-feeding a 1 micron filter. So far it cost me $10 and maybe I can double if not triple the OCI. Lab testing will tell. Being a student I have a very limited budget, and I save $ wherever I can. For easy draining I'll run a pipe from the drain hole near the front left brake, I'll post pics when I'm done.
 
Originally Posted By: Ansky
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
This is likely not doable as a DIY project without tremendous resources


I'm not planning a continuous filtration system. The system I'll be using is basically periodic oil cleaning by gravity-feeding a 1 micron filter. So far it cost me $10 and maybe I can double if not triple the OCI. Lab testing will tell. Being a student I have a very limited budget, and I save $ wherever I can. For easy draining I'll run a pipe from the drain hole near the front left brake, I'll post pics when I'm done.


Your best off using ST synthetic oil and a decent filter and going 7500 to get the best value.

If you start doing UOA you will blow your budget with their cost.
 
Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: Ansky
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
This is likely not doable as a DIY project without tremendous resources


I'm not planning a continuous filtration system. The system I'll be using is basically periodic oil cleaning by gravity-feeding a 1 micron filter. So far it cost me $10 and maybe I can double if not triple the OCI. Lab testing will tell. Being a student I have a very limited budget, and I save $ wherever I can. For easy draining I'll run a pipe from the drain hole near the front left brake, I'll post pics when I'm done.


Your best off using ST synthetic oil and a decent filter and going 7500 to get the best value.

If you start doing UOA you will blow your budget with their cost.


Just until I figure out the maximum range that the oil can take. No more UOA afterwards. In case UOA returns very bad I sell the car before it breaks
laugh.gif

UOA costs 1/4 of an oil change, so no big deal.
 
It used to be commonly said that Spinner centrifuge filters (for HD diesels) would strip additives from oil but research showed the "additives" were soot and dirt. It was amazing to see the amount of crud a Spinner could remove from oil even after relatively low hours.
 
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
It used to be commonly said that Spinner centrifuge filters (for HD diesels) would strip additives from oil but research showed the "additives" were soot and dirt. It was amazing to see the amount of crud a Spinner could remove from oil even after relatively low hours.


I think you'll find this interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Tc-YkJRxk
http://bmwservice.livejournal.com/27699.html
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Ansky
I'm planning to regularly clean the oil of both my car and motorcycle through a fine 1 micron filter. After hearing of stories where filters strip additives from the oil I contacted Amsoil to ask them if my 1 micron filter would strip their additives, here is the answer:
Quote:
Stefan,
No filter system available on the market for cars can strip additives from oil.

Ashley Barone
AMSOIL Technical Services Representative


Does that mean that the size of additives is the same as oil?


This is not an original Amsoil declaration folks.

The original data came from an article in last month's STLE publication, TLT.

Quote:
Does that mean that the size of additives is the same as oil?


Soluble additives have molecules in the nanometer range. No filter can selectively remove additive molecules.


I have to back up what MolaKule said. When I was in high school, my science teacher showed us a video of a scientist conducting an experiment. The scientist added just one drop of something like cooking or vegetable oil in a good size pond. You could tell from the appearance of the water sheen that the one drop spread across the entire pond! It was amazing. Based on what I witnessed (and this is not meant to be critical in any way), I feel that trying to conduct an experiment like the OP intends to do would be highly impractical.
 
Can someone clearly explain what the beef is with Amsoil THIS TIME?

I kid, I kid.

But what Amsoil said is true. And I don't exactly understand what we are trying to solve here.
 
Originally Posted By: Ansky
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
This is likely not doable as a DIY project without tremendous resources


I'm not planning a continuous filtration system. The system I'll be using is basically periodic oil cleaning by gravity-feeding a 1 micron filter. So far it cost me $10 and maybe I can double if not triple the OCI. Lab testing will tell. Being a student I have a very limited budget, and I save $ wherever I can. For easy draining I'll run a pipe from the drain hole near the front left brake, I'll post pics when I'm done.


Ya'll correct me if I'm wrong but if using particulate filtration to attempt to double or triple the oci, the add-pack could still fail or become unsuitable so he could end up with clean but unuseable oil as far as additive retention is concerned. Am I missing something here?
 
If it get his intent correctly, he's going to drain the lube in a conventional manner, then let it gravity drain in a home-made 1um filter set up, and then reintroduce the lube back to the sump. Sounds feasable. And if his cost is truly stated, the ROI should be pretty darn good.

No, a 1um filter isn't going to strip out addtives.

The real way to know how well this is working is to get some UOAs prior and post filtration, as well as do some PCs.



NOTE: the OP is in Switzerland (I presume that to be the country and not a town in the states); I doubt he'll easily find ST synthetic ...
 
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I get the OP's point, my Grandad did similar post war years, and had a foot locker of used sparkplugs that "might not be as bad as the one that I got out"...

A neighbour used to drain the AGIP Sint 2000 out of his high boost turbo Volvo, filter it through some army hats, and pour into his beater.

Could come up with a few cheap rigs for maybe $20 in parts.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Ansky
I'm planning to regularly clean the oil of both my car and motorcycle through a fine 1 micron filter. After hearing of stories where filters strip additives from the oil I contacted Amsoil to ask them if my 1 micron filter would strip their additives, here is the answer:
Quote:
Stefan,
No filter system available on the market for cars can strip additives from oil.

Ashley Barone
AMSOIL Technical Services Representative


Does that mean that the size of additives is the same as oil?


This is not an original Amsoil declaration folks.

The original data came from an article in last month's STLE publication, TLT.

Quote:
Does that mean that the size of additives is the same as oil?


Soluble additives have molecules in the nanometer range. No filter can selectively remove additive molecules.


I should clarify.

The recent STLE article in Tribology and Lubricant Technology supported the Amsoil statement given above.

They ran a number of analysis of VOA's and UOA's of those oils and the analysis showed no statistical differences between the VOA's and UOA's.
 
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There are good and bad news.
The good news is that I did 80,000 km on the same oil and filters. That saved me 3 oil changes, or about $210. I spent $10 on the 1um filters and the ROI was $200. The engine was running fine and the fuel consumption didn't change. There was a bit of gunk inside the engine, but nothing alarming.
The bad news (sort of) is that the car got totaled by a drunk while parked on the side of the road. Time to buy another car with all the insurance money
laugh.gif


I'm now looking into ways to remove the alternator of the next car and put in a motor/generator in its place in order to add hybrid plug-in capability and save on fuel.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
The real way to know how well this is working is to get some UOAs prior and post filtration, as well as do some PCs.


Dnewton is right. First off, anyone who wishes to experiment, I encourage. I am doing likewise. However, you may find it of interest that I AM CURRENTLY running an NTZ filter, which the manufacturer claims is 99.97% efficient at 2 microns: http://ntzfilter.com/sect2a.asp (scroll down and click on Effective Filtration). I can also state that my filtration is 95% more efficient than a Fram at 99% efficient.

I have UOA with particle counts and I have used filter element pictures which I can post...The AL-09 filter element has 280 layers of radial filtration. If the OP thinks he is going to replicate the results of a $300+ filter for $10, I'm all ears.

But without UOA and particle counts before and after, you have absolutely nothing except good vibes and hearsay...Do as you wish. Good luck.

Here is my filter, running WITH a centrifuge, if ANYONE has clean oil, I will in a few more thousand miles; and yes, I will be posting UOA with particle counts before and after: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4223331/Re:_centrifuge#Post4223331
 
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
The real way to know how well this is working is to get some UOAs prior and post filtration, as well as do some PCs.


Dnewton is right. First off, anyone who wishes to experiment, I encourage. I am doing likewise. However, you may find it of interest that I AM CURRENTLY running an NTZ filter, which the manufacturer claims is 99.97% efficient at 2 microns: http://ntzfilter.com/sect2a.asp (scroll down and click on Effective Filtration). I can also state that my filtration is 95% more efficient than a Fram at 99% efficient.

I have UOA with particle counts and I have used filter element pictures which I can post...The AL-09 filter element has 280 layers of radial filtration. If the OP thinks he is going to replicate the results of a $300+ filter for $10, I'm all ears.

But without UOA and particle counts before and after, you have absolutely nothing except good vibes and hearsay...Do as you wish. Good luck.

Here is my filter, running WITH a centrifuge, if ANYONE has clean oil, I will in a few more thousand miles; and yes, I will be posting UOA with particle counts before and after: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4223331/Re:_centrifuge#Post4223331


I got 3 filters for $10, thus $3.33 each. The difference is that the filters I bought don't allow for much flow (which I don't need anyway)
 
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