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#3244217 - 01/10/14 06:41 PM Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650
CentAmDL650 Offline


Registered: 06/11/13
Posts: 61
Loc: FL
2150 miles this time... it was quite obvious shifting had gone into the basement for the last 500 - 600 miles. Blackstone thought the oil was perfectly fine, and again, probably dumped too early. Fill for this time was just under 2 quarts of API SN formula & 1 quart of API SM in the black bottle. I added about 1 - 1.5 oz of Marvel Mystery Oil to every gas tank fill up(3 - 4 gallons), and mostly ran Texaco 87 octane. Somewhere in the middle of the OCI I ran 1 tank with 1 oz of Gumout.



So, other than viscosity degradation and additive depletion, what causes rejected shifts and considerably more force required thru the shift lever (which started at 1500 - 1600 miles in)?

Replacement fill is now Motul 300V Factory Line 10W-40. Subjectively, shifting is the slickest it's ever been, making it feel like a super-precision transmission.


Edited by CentAmDL650 (01/10/14 06:43 PM)
Edit Reason: corrected amt of MMO added per fillup

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#3244470 - 01/10/14 10:32 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
ccdhowell Offline


Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 831
Loc: Shreveport, Louisiana
I read in an Amsoil PC magazine a while back that shift quality is dictated by the friction coefficient of the oil; as in how freely the clutches spin when the clutch is disengaged. As the friction goes up, the shift gets more notchy because the clutches are dragging when disengaged. In my unscientific mind this makes sense to me because I don't like the way Rotella shifts and expect that it has a higher friction coefficient, towards the top of JASO-MA. I say that as oil ages it looses whatever it had maintaining the friction coefficient and shifting goes away.
_________________________
Blue Lion Racing
XC Quad


Current lineup:
'13 Polaris Scrambler 850HO
'09 Kawasaki KFX450R
'09 Polaris Outlaw 450MXR

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#3245463 - 01/12/14 12:07 AM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
Analyzer Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 142
Loc: 805, Ca
Thanks for the UOA CentAmDL650! Looks like the wear metals are starting to go down from your previous UOA with the additional miles you're packing on and when compared to universal averages from the V-Strom. Silicon seemed slightly elevated but nothing to worry about, generally half of the PPM in this UOA can be found in Mobil's 10W40 additive pack to reduce any foaming tendency of the oil. The Sus Vis came through pretty low at the end of the 40 grade, but within limits. It's nice to know that the use of the Marvel and Gumout didn't seem to decrease the viscosity or increase fuel contamination which is an awesome bonus!

With regards to your question ccdhowell provides a good point when it comes down to the feel of shifting quality, here's the Amsoil link I think he was referring to that delves a little more deeply into the subject primarily on page three:

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbullet...equirements.pdf
_________________________
2007 Yamaha FZ1
1986 Yamaha FZX700 Fazer
1995 Honda Accord LX
1992 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer 4x4

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#3246679 - 01/13/14 08:49 AM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
sunruh Offline


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 1630
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
yes all looks fine and even in grade.

however, the left foot says this oil was whipped.

most of us ride a bike for fun, not a necessity.

so why go 600miles with un-fun shifting?
_________________________
motorcycle oil myth buster

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#3249449 - 01/15/14 05:06 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
BigCahuna Offline


Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 1259
Loc: Deep in the heart of Jersey
Could the clutch just need to be adjusted?. The report doesn't say how many miles are on the bike, so it might be that simple.,,

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#3251500 - 01/17/14 06:36 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
CentAmDL650 Offline


Registered: 06/11/13
Posts: 61
Loc: FL
Originally Posted By: sunruh
yes all looks fine and even in grade.

however, the left foot says this oil was whipped.

most of us ride a bike for fun, not a necessity.

so why go 600miles with un-fun shifting?

I wanted to match the previous 2700 miles of my last UOA. I thought using the same fill as previous UOA would deliver the mileage (and perhaps more since the last fill still felt fine when drained) but maybe my behavior was an example of sanity gone wild: Doing the same thing again and expecting a similar result. Motorcycles and oils just don't seem to fit this model. For me at least.

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Could the clutch need to be adjusted?. The report doesn't say how many miles are on the bike, so it might be that simple.,,

I'm figuring the internet bridge lanes are likely closed down for failing to endorse the "incumbent" motor oil's bid for another OCI, but the report does indeed state the mileage on the bike as "MI/HR on Unit" and "11,071 miles." The clutch/ shifting performed fine when the next oil fill was added, as I stated in the first post: "Replacement fill is now Motul 300V Factory Line 10W-40. Subjectively, shifting is the slickest it's ever been, making it feel like a super-precision transmission."

Analyzer: If the oil is behind the shifting issues, the Amsoil TSB would seem to indicate the M1 4T 10W40 JASO MA recommended oil is changing its frictional characteristics with age, from perhaps being a MA-1 early in life and eventually becoming an MA-2 or MA-2+. But what physical or chemical properties of the oil are responsible for this Dr. Jeckyll to Mr. Hyde transformation?

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#3251521 - 01/17/14 06:59 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
CATERHAM Online   content


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9557
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Presumably you're talking about shift quality deteriorating once the oil gets up to temperature. When the engine in cold the shift quality should be fine.

Motul 300V 10W-40 is not any heavier the M1 4T 10W-40 in it's virgin state at least not in terms of kinematic viscosity. It is of course ester based so it's HTHSV may be higher; too bad formulators of 4T oil don't provide that more relavent viscosity measure.
If the Motul does last longer then you may have found your oil if you don't mind the higher cost.

I know a lot of guys find no 4T 10W-40 oil lasts very long before shift quality deteriorates. Many just use a cheap HDEO 10W-30 or 15W-40 and change the oil often.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3251547 - 01/17/14 07:27 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CATERHAM]
CentAmDL650 Offline


Registered: 06/11/13
Posts: 61
Loc: FL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Presumably you're talking about shift quality deteriorating once the oil gets up to temperature. When the engine in cold the shift quality should be fine.

No, the shifting became poor at all times, cold or hot.

Quote:
Motul 300V 10W-40 is not any heavier the M1 4T 10W-40 in it's virgin state at least not in terms of kinematic viscosity. It is of course ester based so it's HTHSV may be higher; too bad formulators of 4T oil don't provide that more relavent viscosity measure.

I'm not convinced the kinematic viscosity at any time had anything to do with the shifting performance. The viscosity on the previous OCI was nearly identical to this OCI, yet that same brand & viscosity grade oil was fine when I dumped it with nearly 600 more miles, and this fill had poor shifts 500-600 miles before it was dumped. Was the one quart of API-SM responsible this time? And why did I end up with a significantly higher flash point this time?

And in terms of HTHSV (measured @ 150C, right?)... how would I be cooking the oil with these temps if I'm riding average speeds on streets and highways with a stock 180F thermostat? No racing, track days, moto-cross or hooligan shenanigans were involved. Most trips were medium (15 miles) to long (some >200 miles), so few if any severe-duty short trips were involved.

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#3251574 - 01/17/14 07:57 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
CATERHAM Online   content


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9557
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Yes HTHSV (or bearing viscosity as it is often called) is measured at 150C but since the measure is taken under pressure it more closely correlates to actual operational viscosity at temp's even below 100C. The only reason I mentioned it was because HTHSV factors in an oils chemistry (pressure-viscosity CoF to be precise) which the KV100 spec' doesn't, so it makes comparing or predicting the actual hot operational viscosities of different oil brands more accurate.

I'm surprised that your shift quality remained poor even when the oil was cold; that certainly hasn't been my or my friends experience. It also eliminates viscosity from the equation with your experience with Mobil 4T 10W-40.

Anyway, your happy with the ester based Motul 300V. Hopefully it lasts longer for you.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3251636 - 01/17/14 09:00 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
ccdhowell Offline


Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 831
Loc: Shreveport, Louisiana
Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650

Analyzer: If the oil is behind the shifting issues, the Amsoil TSB would seem to indicate the M1 4T 10W40 JASO MA recommended oil is changing its frictional characteristics with age, from perhaps being a MA-1 early in life and eventually becoming an MA-2 or MA-2+. But what physical or chemical properties of the oil are responsible for this Dr. Jeckyll to Mr. Hyde transformation?


Yes, this is what I think. Oil undergoes some transformation as it ages(oxidation?) and in certain oils and certain bikes this leads to poor shift quality. I can not identify what happens, but can attest to it being a real-world observation that is repeatable. I have 4 race quads that run 4 different oils(all synthetic high quality oils) based mostly on shift quality throughout a 2 hour XC race. Different engines seem to like different oils, which, of course, have different frictional characteristics and "degrade" differently. At this point I'm not trying to "fight" it, I am satisfied that it happens and that I know how to choose an oil that will satisfy the engine's and clutch's requirements for the environment that we race in.
_________________________
Blue Lion Racing
XC Quad


Current lineup:
'13 Polaris Scrambler 850HO
'09 Kawasaki KFX450R
'09 Polaris Outlaw 450MXR

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#3252115 - 01/18/14 01:25 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: ccdhowell]
CATERHAM Online   content


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9557
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I don't think the issue is with the clutch because once moving with a contant mesh gearbox it's not necessary to use the clutch at all to change gears, just back off the throttle and you can easily shift from one cog to the next.
The issue is how the lubricant behaves in the gearbox as miles are racked up.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3253035 - 01/19/14 12:41 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CATERHAM]
Mackelroy Offline


Registered: 12/03/04
Posts: 771
Loc: Florida /Texas
If your not using the clutch shifting, then your not going to see the frictional characteristics oil has on the clutch with the plates partially separated.

The slicker the oil the less plate drag on the plates when they are partially separated.

It hard to compare when shifting in direct drive mode, all oils feel about the same to me, in that mode.

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#3253510 - 01/19/14 09:30 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
Analyzer Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 142
Loc: 805, Ca
"Analyzer: If the oil is behind the shifting issues, the Amsoil TSB would seem to indicate the M1 4T 10W40 JASO MA recommended oil is changing its frictional characteristics with age, from perhaps being a MA-1 early in life and eventually becoming an MA-2 or MA-2+. But what physical or chemical properties of the oil are responsible for this Dr. Jeckyll to Mr. Hyde transformation?[/quote]"

Under normal circumstances usually when a rider has an issue with clutch engagement/feel it can usually be attributed to more of a mechanical issue, ranging from: clutch free-play, cable adjustment, glazed/worn clutch, etc. Since your bike seems to be ridden easier and is relatively new with lower mileage, and the fact that using your previous fill of M1 10W40 provided desirable clutch actuation and subsequently became worse with the same oil in a shorter amount of time, I would be more suspect of the oil.

Now, the JASO MA standard for an oils frictional properties within their test methodology provides you with three categories while maintaining JASO MA standards in this order: JASO MA, MA1, MA2. They test three areas with a given oil which are: dynamic friction- the clutch is engaged and the plates contact each other (related to clutch feel/uptake), static friction- the force that keeps the frictional plates locked together and prevents slippage (relating to clutch slip), and stop time index- which is the time of the initial plate contact and the point at which the rotational speed equalizes.

The most relevant to your situation is the dynamic test (clutch feel/uptake). With the grading system, MA is the entry level grade, followed by better/higher friction coefficients of MA1 and MA2. Since MA2 has the highest friction rating, it provides the best performance at resisting clutch slippage and clutch holding capacity, again referring to clutch feel/takeup. M1 10W40 is rated JASO MA (the lower of the frictional levels), and a MA2 rated oil in theory could provide you with better clutch activation/feel.
Your V-Strom is required to use MA, and should provide adequate clutch activation/feel as it did in your earlier run of M1. Without knowing the various companies oil chemistry it's hard to come to an exact conclusion. The only thing I've noticed between your last two UOA's is the fact that your Sus Vis was already lower than your previous UOA with less mileage. This current one came in just above the 40 grade on the bottom end, but is lower than the previous, and managed this with over a 25% drop in mileage and the same amount of fuel contamination. The oil was definitely shearing at a faster rate than your previous fill, and that could have led to the rough shifting. There is also a possibility that during the last 500-600 miles the oil experienced even further viscosity loss due to temporary shear where the viscosity polymers instead of being normally spherical in shape can become temporarily deformed (elongated) which could have caused the viscosity to drop to a higher 30 grade, and then return to it's proper spherical shape increasing the viscosity back to a low 40 grade oil.

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1105.pdf

https://www.oronite.com/paratone/shearloss.aspx


Edited by Analyzer (01/19/14 09:35 PM)
_________________________
2007 Yamaha FZ1
1986 Yamaha FZX700 Fazer
1995 Honda Accord LX
1992 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer 4x4

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#3305154 - 03/08/14 05:55 AM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
Qwiky Offline


Registered: 08/27/10
Posts: 98
Loc: NSW Australia
Don't forget the shift cam, shift drum, shift forks, shafts and gear shafts. There is a lot more between the right foot and and a gear change than just a clutch.

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#3305576 - 03/08/14 05:35 PM Re: Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40, Suzuki V-Strom DL-650 [Re: CentAmDL650]
Qwiky Offline


Registered: 08/27/10
Posts: 98
Loc: NSW Australia
That should be left foot in the majority of cases. Who would have thought I have been riding motorcycles for 40 years.

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