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#3251515 - 01/17/14 06:50 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Ramblejam]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 31513
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ford's Modular engine seems to do just fine racking up obscene mileage without a UCL.


There are certainly many high-mileage ones out there.

I find it rather interesting though to park my idling, 225,00 mile F-150 farm truck next to another of the same vintage -- with the standard dosage of 1oz/5gal TC-W3, it's noticeably quieter in comparison.


Perhaps you've just looked after it better shrug

Both our 5.4L's are extremely quiet. The one (my dad's) has had a steady diet of M1 since pretty much new. Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds mad
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#3251529 - 01/17/14 07:04 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Finz]
CourierDriver Offline


Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 3966
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: Clevy
As far as upper cylinder lubes go I cannot say for sure whether they affect wear in any measurable way however I still use tc-w3 in my fuel just in case. It costs pennies to treat a tankful and hasn't hurt yet. I've never had a fouled plug or anything.
Tc-w3 has detergents in it and because it's an oil it may help fuel pumps and rubber seals exposed to the drying effects of ethanol.
Either way its cheap and in my mind its not hurting anything.


+1
+1 again
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#3251531 - 01/17/14 07:05 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Cujet]
CourierDriver Offline


Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 3966
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I hate to admit it, but I tried MMO in the gas in my 2003 Jaguar X-Type 2.5L V6. I was experiencing a rough idle and started thinking about poor valve sealing, sticky rings, balky injectors and so on. Considering that MMO has been known to help in such matters, I tried it. Success!

I added nearly a quart of the stuff to a 15 gallon tank. The engine was nearly instantly smooth. And, it clearly remains so many tanks later.
+1 on that, still my fav....
What happened? I really don't know. And, while I prefer scientific methodology and reasoning over "old wives tales", I can only speculate on the reasons why it worked. I will refrain from doing so.
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#3251899 - 01/18/14 08:07 AM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: OVERKILL]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 13794
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[ Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds mad


Same side? I used aftermarket ones or Gibson shorty SS headers on a few of these and they didn't rust anywhere near like the OEM, the SS not at all.
Did they use the new Ford SS studs?

I always do both sides on these, one almost always follows the other, plus the drivers side is a lot easier.
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#3252015 - 01/18/14 10:36 AM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Trav]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 31513
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[ Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds mad


Same side? I used aftermarket ones or Gibson shorty SS headers on a few of these and they didn't rust anywhere near like the OEM, the SS not at all.
Did they use the new Ford SS studs?

I always do both sides on these, one almost always follows the other, plus the drivers side is a lot easier.


Same side. It is getting the stainless headers this time. Yes, it got the new stainless studs from Ford.
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#3252069 - 01/18/14 12:05 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dave5358]
Challenger71 Offline


Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 511
Loc: Va
Another great analogy and because of this most taxis have much less start-up wear.

Originally Posted By: dave5358
As for taxis running propane, that was fairly unusual - a few very large cities with serious pollution issues. Taxis tend to rack up high mileage and last a long time because the engines rarely cools down, and most taxis are driven in a fairly conservative manner. Plus, fleet owners tend to take maintenance quite seriously.
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#3252491 - 01/18/14 08:54 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dave5358]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 18328
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Propane conversions are normally done by professional shops on engines originally designed to run on gasoline. I'm surprised an oiler wasn't installed as part of the conversion. By comparison to propane, gasoline seem absolutely oily. When a UCL is used in a propane/cng conversion, the dosage rate can be very low.

Yep, Shannow gave me a very cool link. For the taxis, other motorists killed taxis before dry fuel did. wink

Originally Posted By: dave5358
You raised a good point that I had forgotten about - propane is really cheap. Our local gas-electric utility ran its vehicles on propane and operating economy was probably a big motivation. The $2000-4000 cost of a propane conversion would pay for itself in just a few years.

My best price on propane, at one time, was getting paid two cents per litre to take it. The pump price was five cents per litre (price war) and the included, refundable tax (by mail in rebate) was seven cents per litre. So, I got paid to take the fuel. wink
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#3253060 - 01/19/14 01:05 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: OVERKILL]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 13794
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[ Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds mad


Same side? I used aftermarket ones or Gibson shorty SS headers on a few of these and they didn't rust anywhere near like the OEM, the SS not at all.
Did they use the new Ford SS studs?

I always do both sides on these, one almost always follows the other, plus the drivers side is a lot easier.


Same side. It is getting the stainless headers this time. Yes, it got the new stainless studs from Ford.


Have you looked at the Gibson SS shorties? I used them on an 04 Expedition 5.4, nice!
They have the egr provision and a nice thick flange, perfect fit.
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#3253568 - 01/19/14 11:13 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Trav]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 31513
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[ Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds mad


Same side? I used aftermarket ones or Gibson shorty SS headers on a few of these and they didn't rust anywhere near like the OEM, the SS not at all.
Did they use the new Ford SS studs?

I always do both sides on these, one almost always follows the other, plus the drivers side is a lot easier.


Same side. It is getting the stainless headers this time. Yes, it got the new stainless studs from Ford.


Have you looked at the Gibson SS shorties? I used them on an 04 Expedition 5.4, nice!
They have the egr provision and a nice thick flange, perfect fit.


Yessir, those are the ones thumbsup
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#3253900 - 01/20/14 11:25 AM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dino33]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 17044
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: dino33
So, we like additives to extend our engine life, keep them running at top performance, and maybe even get some extra mileage with our fuel. the question is do we use additives and ignore an upper cylinder? Is a ucl as effective as an additive? And is there any evidence or proof that an upper cylinder lubricant is effective at lessening wear and keeping your engine in top shape? For what it's worth I'm using ceretec/Mos2 with good oil. As well, I've been using Lucas ucl for the last year. I want to get at least a half a million kms out of the Prius. So far so good.... Thanks in advance...


There is little benefit from top oils:

Quote:
Others try to simply "lubricate" the valve seats with upper cylinder oil. The temperatures involved are much to[o]
great for simple lubricants.

Redline Link
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#3253909 - 01/20/14 11:38 AM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: MolaKule]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 24964
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

There is little benefit from top oils:


Interesting, it makes me wonder why Redline adds a UCL to their FI cleaner, and then advertises about it? shrug
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#3253960 - 01/20/14 12:25 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dino33]
nleksan Offline


Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 587
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
Probably because everyone else does, and they don't want to lose sales over semantics.
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#3253978 - 01/20/14 12:41 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: nleksan]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 24964
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Probably because everyone else does, and they don't want to lose sales over semantics.


That could very well be, if so then they aren't the stellar ethical company I thought they were. Oh well.
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#3254101 - 01/20/14 02:13 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: nleksan]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 17044
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Probably because everyone else does, and they don't want to lose sales over semantics.


Here is what I think they think: If you have a public out there who thinks they need a particular product, you may as well sell them the product to increase sales.

It has been bantered around and claimed in some adv. that certain esters can function as an Upper Cylinder Lube.

I have yet to see any STLE, SAE, or lab document that shows any scientific (thermodynamic, tribological, chemical, or mechnical) evidence to support the need for an upper cylinder lubricant.

If and when I ever find such a document I will write a white paper on it.

I can see where a fuel additive may help lubricate say the pintle/valve in a diesel fuel injector system when using low sulfur fuel. But how much wear would it actually reduce?

Again, some supportable, repeatable data would be nice.



Edited by MolaKule (01/20/14 02:16 PM)
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#3254124 - 01/20/14 02:32 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dino33]
TrevorS Offline


Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 1281
Loc: California
When I used Gumout All In One for the PEA, I was unaware that it had the UCL / friction modifier.

I did notice the car was smoother, and that this lasted for a couple more tanks. My wife noticed it too.

Now the manufacturer does say not to use UCL so I will follow their instructions going forward as I presume they have looked at this far more completely and figured that any potential gains (if any) are outweighed by known and unknown risks.

Of course, UCLs must do something otherwise people wouldn't buy them. For some, that something is in their heads, but I would guess that some smoothness does occur for some people.

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