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#3247631 - 01/13/14 10:43 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Finz]
earlyre Offline


Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 2228
Loc: Lima, Ohio, USA
Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: turtlevette


I assume you're running much less than a 50:1 ratio as used in outboard motors. Does it produce that stinky exhaust that outboards have? What is the threshold?



Personally, I'm running 1 oz to every 5 gals of petrol...
600:1


not to split hairs, and at these concentrations it hardly makes a difference, but 1 oz to 5 Gal makes it 640:1
the first week i tried this ratio(week between Christmas and new years), the car did seem to run smoother, and get incrementally better mileage, but i also was able to park in the garage that week, vs outside...

personally i'm using the Valvoline tcw-3(it's what the store had) $4.66/qt, which at 640:1 (gas:oil), works out to about 2.7 cents /gallon of gas.


Edited by earlyre (01/13/14 10:47 PM)
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#3247691 - 01/14/14 12:19 AM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dino33]
bvance554 Offline


Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 925
Loc: VA
Doesn't the upper cylinder get lubed by the crankcase oil? Tolerances are engineered into engines and designed for a little oil to get past the rings and lube the cylinder (yes all engines burn a little oil). I've never used any UC lube and I get lots and lots of miles out of my vehicles. The expense and cerebral fortitude that went into the engineering of my engine far out weigh the benefit of any UC lube i could add IMO.


Edited by bvance554 (01/14/14 12:20 AM)

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#3247850 - 01/14/14 08:25 AM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: bvance554]
otlew Offline


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Houston Texas
I have never tested any fuel additive, by test I mean gathered and analyzed the before and after data.

Further I only know of one circumstance of such testing and the additive used was Marvel Mystery Oil.

I know that a respected retired Houston NASA Mechanical Engineer, tested a car on a dynamometer with and without MMO. The result was a 5 Horse Power increase using the MMO, not a show stopping result to me.

I did not participate in or witness the testing and did not commence using MMO after hearing the results. I am not sure if the testing was performed more than once, what controls were in place and if it was repeatable, in other words met scientific rigor.

Anyone have access to a test facility?

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#3247898 - 01/14/14 09:33 AM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: bvance554]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Doesn't the upper cylinder get lubed by the crankcase oil? Tolerances are engineered into engines and designed for a little oil to get past the rings and lube the cylinder (yes all engines burn a little oil).

Basically, no - not unless your rings are passing oil or your valve stem seals are leaking, neither of which is really desirable. Some very old engine designs (e.g. L-head and flat head engines) needed upper cylinder lubrication to keep the valves functioning. It is/was a popular addition to stationary engines - pumps, oil rigs, etc. With UCL, these utility engines will last just about forever.

Most modern engine designs don't require it, but some form of upper cylinder lubrication may still provide some benefit - slightly increased compression, for example. UCL creates a better seal for the top compression ring. Some engines are prone to burning exhaust valves. One fix is to rebuild the engine with better valve material, but UCL may solve this problem using the existing valves.

Depending on how you input the UCL, you may get some cleaning or other benefits as well. Another responder said it lubricated and quieted his fuel pump.
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#3247905 - 01/14/14 09:38 AM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dave5358]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21317
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: bvance554
Doesn't the upper cylinder get lubed by the crankcase oil? Tolerances are engineered into engines and designed for a little oil to get past the rings and lube the cylinder (yes all engines burn a little oil).

Basically, no - not unless your rings are passing oil or your valve stem seals are leaking, neither of which is really desirable. Some very old engine designs (e.g. L-head and flat head engines) needed upper cylinder lubrication to keep the valves functioning. It is/was a popular addition to stationary engines - pumps, oil rigs, etc. With UCL, these utility engines will last just about forever.

Most modern engine designs don't require it, but some form of upper cylinder lubrication may still provide some benefit - slightly increased compression, for example. UCL creates a better seal for the top compression ring. Some engines are prone to burning exhaust valves. One fix is to rebuild the engine with better valve material, but UCL may solve this problem using the existing valves.

Depending on how you input the UCL, you may get some cleaning or other benefits as well. Another responder said it lubricated and quieted his fuel pump.


Nice write up Dave.
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#3248018 - 01/14/14 11:20 AM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dino33]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4609
Loc: Mahzurrah!
I have used MMO continuously in the gas for my old glorified tractor engine'd Jeep 4.0 for over two years. I get better mpg, smoother running and my last UOA showed aluminum at 1 ppm, this in an engine known for piston skirt issues. I believe this is due to the UCL benefits of MMO. That's my conclusion, I can't prove it correct nor can anyone prove it wrong either.

It works for me, I like it, its cheap and I won't gas the Jeep without MMO. I don't care if somebody else likes it or not as long as I'm still able to buy it, I will. I experimented briefly with TCW3 but I prefer the cleaning benefits of MMO so I stick with that.

When used in the crankcase the oil always notably darkens within a couple hundred miles as well, my use there has been sporadic however.
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#3248159 - 01/14/14 01:38 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Clevy]
Challenger71 Offline


Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 503
Loc: Va
This is absolutely why people who are concerned about their vehicles utilize a UCL: to counter the effects of corrosive ethanol. All other benefits are a just a plus, especially the fuel pump.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
As far as upper cylinder lubes go I cannot say for sure whether they affect wear in any measurable way however I still use tc-w3 in my fuel just in case. It costs pennies to treat a tankful and hasn't hurt yet. I've never had a fouled plug or anything.
Tc-w3 has detergents in it and because it's an oil it may help fuel pumps and rubber seals exposed to the drying effects of ethanol.
Either way its cheap and in my mind its not hurting anything.
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#3248371 - 01/14/14 05:30 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Finz]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7065
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: turtlevette


I assume you're running much less than a 50:1 ratio as used in outboard motors. Does it produce that stinky exhaust that outboards have? What is the threshold?



Personally, I'm running 1 oz to every 5 gals of petrol... 600:1


^^^Yes, a four stroke, ICE in an automobile might not even run on a 50:1 ratio!
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#3249235 - 01/15/14 01:16 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Challenger71]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Challenger71
This is absolutely why people who are concerned about their vehicles utilize a UCL: to counter the effects of corrosive ethanol.<snip>


Challenger raises a good point. I'm not so sure ethanol is really corrosive, but it sure doesn't provide much lubrication either. In the last 50 years or so, vehicles have used leaded gasoline, then unleaded gasoline and now unleaded gasoline with ethanol added. A very few vehicles use LPG/CNG - just one more step along this line (our local public utility powers its fleet with LPG/CNG - some cities use LPG/CNG to power buses and other public vehicles as well).

Each of these fuels have less lubrication properties than it's predecessor. Yet, materials and technology inside the vehicle engine really hasn't changed that much in this same period.

These changes in fuels have not gone unnoticed. Even such stuffy folks as Rolls-Royce weighed in on the use of upper cylinder lubrication in their engines - this on the eve of the Aussies removing tetra-ethyl lead from consumer motor fuel. Rolls-Royce engines (and the whole vehicle, for that matter) tend to last a very long time. As I recall, Rolls' engineers decided that UCL was not required. You may note that many Rolls-Royce engines run at very low compression, in the range of ~6:1 - solid but stuffy. Your 11:1 compression-ratio hot-dog dream car may not be as forgiving.

And, several companies, such as AMPCO still market inverse oilers or lubricators - mostly aimed at the LPG/CNG vehicles. If you want your engine to last but there's no lube in the fuel, they might be worth a look.

At the opposite end of the oily-fuel scale is diesel. I used to have a civil engineer friend who drove an ancient Mercedes 180D. The car had about 500,000 miles on the clock and he was still on the original, never opened engine. It was going to run forever, the fact of which he bragged about endlessly (to everyone's annoyance). Why not? High quality construction plus super conservative engineering plus a fuel which provided great upper cylinder lubrication - it ought to run forever.
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#3249264 - 01/15/14 01:41 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dave5358]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26419
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: Challenger71
This is absolutely why people who are concerned about their vehicles utilize a UCL: to counter the effects of corrosive ethanol.<snip>


Challenger raises a good point. I'm not so sure ethanol is really corrosive, but it sure doesn't provide much lubrication either. In the last 50 years or so, vehicles have used leaded gasoline, then unleaded gasoline and now unleaded gasoline with ethanol added. A very few vehicles use LPG/CNG - just one more step along this line (our local public utility powers its fleet with LPG/CNG - some cities use LPG/CNG to power buses and other public vehicles as well).

Each of these fuels have less lubrication properties than it's predecessor. Yet, materials and technology inside the vehicle engine really hasn't changed that much in this same period.

These changes in fuels have not gone unnoticed. Even such stuffy folks as Rolls-Royce weighed in on the use of upper cylinder lubrication in their engines - this on the eve of the Aussies removing tetra-ethyl lead from consumer motor fuel. Rolls-Royce engines (and the whole vehicle, for that matter) tend to last a very long time. As I recall, Rolls' engineers decided that UCL was not required. You may note that many Rolls-Royce engines run at very low compression, in the range of ~6:1 - solid but stuffy. Your 11:1 compression-ratio hot-dog dream car may not be as forgiving.

And, several companies, such as AMPCO still market inverse oilers or lubricators - mostly aimed at the LPG/CNG vehicles. If you want your engine to last but there's no lube in the fuel, they might be worth a look.

At the opposite end of the oily-fuel scale is diesel. I used to have a civil engineer friend who drove an ancient Mercedes 180D. The car had about 500,000 miles on the clock and he was still on the original, never opened engine. It was going to run forever, the fact of which he bragged about endlessly (to everyone's annoyance). Why not? High quality construction plus super conservative engineering plus a fuel which provided great upper cylinder lubrication - it ought to run forever.


There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.
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#3249282 - 01/15/14 02:00 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: OVERKILL]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9959
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.


There is a lot of truth to that.
I think a lot has to do with oils and piston ring designs and materials many years ago when these types of products may have really helped.

Personally I want as little oil based products going through the cat as possible.
JMHO.
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#3249338 - 01/15/14 02:58 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: OVERKILL]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.


That well could be, particularly if these vehicles were used in taxi or limo service. For many such vehicles, the engine is rarely turned off, except maybe to refuel, for maintenance, driver runs in to a lunch counter, etc. The number of 'cold starts' is really quite small.The big V-8's are really never strained. And... the engines lasts forever. I don't mean to knock Crown Vic's, but I've never been that impressed with them otherwise. I've knew Mercedes-Benz and Crown Victoria, you're no Mercedes-Benz. Back in the real world, 'cold starts' are a fact of life.

As for LEO vehicles, they don't last so long. Even if the engine holds up, the rest of the vehicle has a hard life. Watch your local auto auctions - LEO vehicles rarely go for much. I'm not counting the Chief's car or Captain's car, recently purchased new, rarely driven, offered to him at a sweetheart price upon his retirement, etc.
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#3249431 - 01/15/14 04:42 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dave5358]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26419
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.


That well could be, particularly if these vehicles were used in taxi or limo service. For many such vehicles, the engine is rarely turned off, except maybe to refuel, for maintenance, driver runs in to a lunch counter, etc. The number of 'cold starts' is really quite small.The big V-8's are really never strained. And... the engines lasts forever. I don't mean to knock Crown Vic's, but I've never been that impressed with them otherwise. I've knew Mercedes-Benz and Crown Victoria, you're no Mercedes-Benz. Back in the real world, 'cold starts' are a fact of life.

As for LEO vehicles, they don't last so long. Even if the engine holds up, the rest of the vehicle has a hard life. Watch your local auto auctions - LEO vehicles rarely go for much. I'm not counting the Chief's car or Captain's car, recently purchased new, rarely driven, offered to him at a sweetheart price upon his retirement, etc.


Around here the LEO Vic's usually get bought up by cab companies and retired somewhere north of 500,000Km when the bodies take them to scrap yard.

And don't worry, I wasn't comparing a Vic to a Benz wink I was just pointing out that in these applications Ford's Modular engine seems to do just fine racking up obscene mileage without a UCL. The "Million Mile van" is another one of those, a 5.4L Modular in a van used as a courier.

And while I'm sure these vehicles don't get a lot of cold starts, the reason for that is because of how much they are used, which is of course how they get the mileage they do on them. Most cars up here go to the scrap yard either due to transmission failure and age, the body rotting off, being in an accident or complete and utter neglect (running the engine out of oil). A properly maintained vehicle with an engine that doesn't have some sort of predisposition for self destruction doesn't go to the wreckers because somebody wore the engine out by not running a UCL smile

A couple examples:

Town Car:
http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Lincoln/Town+Car/MARKHAM/Ontario/19_7577085_/

653,000Km on it (405,000 miles)

Town Car:
http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Lincoln/Town+Car/BRAMPTON/Ontario/19_7698930_/

495,000Km on it (307,000 miles)
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#3249433 - 01/15/14 04:44 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: Trav]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26419
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.


There is a lot of truth to that.
I think a lot has to do with oils and piston ring designs and materials many years ago when these types of products may have really helped.

Personally I want as little oil based products going through the cat as possible.
JMHO.



Yes, and they have coated skirts on the pistons too.

We've never run a UCL in anything, not even our antique boat engines or Ford 8N tractor (which is still going). Just good oil changed at reasonable intervals.
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#3249595 - 01/15/14 07:34 PM Re: Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives [Re: dino33]
Challenger71 Offline


Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 503
Loc: Va
Because a taxi can run and achieve 500k miles is significant in it's own right and deserves some merit. However because vehicle gets that far does not mean it operates at optimum. All we know is that it runs well enough and thats about it. Especially with taxis I see around here with their shot valve seals. I try to achieve optimum as best that I can for my vehicles and when it comes to fuel I try to apply a buffer to ethanol with the use of a UCL for the entire fuel system.
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