Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Again, I am not even sure what you are arguing about here. In your last sentence, you finally seem to have given up on the claim than VW 502 00 actually provides more wear protection than VW 504 00.
The claim that when new specs replace old specs, the wear protection is sacrificed for emissions durability makes little sense. For example API CJ-4 is explicitly for emissions protection (call it mid-SAPS if you like) but yet it offers more wear protection than API CI-4 Plus. The goal of the oil industry and OEMs is to keep the wear protection at least the same while they improve the emissions protection.
First, I said that VW504.00/507.00 is not guarantee that they provide better lubrication. I said: VW 502.00 can provide better lubrication then VW 504.00/507.00 or vice versa (vice versa means that also certain VW504.00/507.00 could provide better lubrication then certain VW502.00, depending what oils we compare). However, this web site does not allow me to draw pictures, that might be easier to understand.
Also, how is that VW504.00/507.00 is not Porsche approved if offers better lubrication, but many VW502.00 oils are also Porsche A40 approved? Porsche A40 is probably most stringent requirement when it comes to lubrication, or protection of key components in engine such as: camshaft, crankshaft etc? There is no ONE VW504.00/507.00 oil that meets A40 requirement.
As I will say again, VW504.00/507.00 are developed primarily for emission protection. That does not mean that if you develop oil for better emission protection it will impact lubrication properties. VW504.00/507.00 could have SAME base stocks as VW505.01 or VW502.00 or BMW-LL04 or BMW-LL01. Many of these oil manufacturers get same base stock, but additive package is different or sulfated ash content is different.
What makes you think that M1 0W40 MB229.5 has different base stock then MB229.51 (Low-SAPS)? It is additive package that is different and probably both oils are of same lubrication quality.
The difference is that M1 0W40 ESP will protect emission system better, and because EU gas has lower sulphur content, it is more suitable for that market then for the US market where you get M1 0W40 Full SAPS oil.
The difference is that High-SAPS oils will do better when it comes to oxidation of oil in environment where gas has high sulphur content (U.S., Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Canada, Brazil etc), which can lead to sludge etc. in the environment where there is low sulphur content (EU, japan), Low-SAPS oils could be used because lower TBN cannot be depleted that fast as in environment with high sulphur content in gas.
Also, what makes you think that todays VW502.00 or MB229.5 or BMW LL-01 oils do not lubricate better then 10yrs ago? Just because it is old spec, does not mean that lubrication quality is same like 10yrs ago.
I don't think we're disagreeing here much.
Don't all VW 504 00 oils also satisfy VW 502 00? So, that means any VW 504 00 oil is already automatically certified for the Porsche if Porsche is recommending VW 502 00.
Porsche is not recommending VW502.00. I said: same oil that meets VW502.00 usually meets A40.
Only Green GC once met A40 of W30 oils.
VW504.00/507.00 replaced VW502.00 ONLY on the EU market. Same as LL-04 replaced LL-01 ONLY on the EU market, and that is because EU market has unified EURO norms when it comes to gas quality and emission quality.
That means that in order for diesel engine to meet EURO V norms, it needs to have DPF filter. That also means that because of sensitivity of DPF filter, high sulfated ash in oil cannot be used, so car manufacturers require Low-SAPS oils to prevent damage on DPF.
But since EU gas is clean, you can use Low-SAPS and still have enough TBN for long drain intervals.
In the US situation is different. Due to higher sulphur content and lower ceten number of diesel fuel, VW for example cannot use long drain interval on 2.0TDI engine as they do in Europe. That is why they cut down OCI from 30,000km (EU) to 16,000km (10,000 miles in the U.S), because they still MUST use Low-SAPS oil because their cars come with DPF filter in the U.S. too. What EPA did is that they became more strict on emissions, but they did not lower sulphur content and other chemicals in diesel fuel enough in order to both meet emission standards and have long drain interval. Now, confusion here comes from requirements for gas engines. Let me elaborate:
The U.S. gas has much more sulphur then EU gas. The difference is even higher then when it comes to diesel engines. Reason why sulphur was lowered for diesel engines is because trucking unions pushed EPA to lower sulphur level in order that new trucks could properly work. Reason is that many engines in the U.S. trucks are coming from EU (Volvo, MACK-Renault, Mercedes) so EPA had to react on the new developments, and that also benefited diesel cars.
Gas is different. GM, Ford, Chrysler were behind the curve. It was in their favor to have high sulphur in a gas because direct injection was primarily coming from Europe. In EU they took care of sulphur in gas, so Euro gassers get Low-SAPS oils, less intake deposits and have stratified injections. But in the U.S. big three lobbied for more stringent NoX requirements which is the byproduct of direct injection. So we do not get stratified injection, and due to sulphur we have to use High-SAPS oil in gassers. However, since Ford, Gm and Chrysler (FIAT) are massively bringing technology from EU, probably we will see push for better gas quality in order to mitigate these issues. That is why you cannot use VW504.00/507.00 in direct injection gas engine more then 5K, because sulphur in gas would "kill" TBN.
So Vw504.00/507.00 or Vw502.00 could have same base stocks and lubrication quality, but additive package is different.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Again, I am not even sure what you are arguing about here. In your last sentence, you finally seem to have given up on the claim than VW 502 00 actually provides more wear protection than VW 504 00.
The claim that when new specs replace old specs, the wear protection is sacrificed for emissions durability makes little sense. For example API CJ-4 is explicitly for emissions protection (call it mid-SAPS if you like) but yet it offers more wear protection than API CI-4 Plus. The goal of the oil industry and OEMs is to keep the wear protection at least the same while they improve the emissions protection.
First, I said that VW504.00/507.00 is not guarantee that they provide better lubrication. I said: VW 502.00 can provide better lubrication then VW 504.00/507.00 or vice versa (vice versa means that also certain VW504.00/507.00 could provide better lubrication then certain VW502.00, depending what oils we compare). However, this web site does not allow me to draw pictures, that might be easier to understand.
Also, how is that VW504.00/507.00 is not Porsche approved if offers better lubrication, but many VW502.00 oils are also Porsche A40 approved? Porsche A40 is probably most stringent requirement when it comes to lubrication, or protection of key components in engine such as: camshaft, crankshaft etc? There is no ONE VW504.00/507.00 oil that meets A40 requirement.
As I will say again, VW504.00/507.00 are developed primarily for emission protection. That does not mean that if you develop oil for better emission protection it will impact lubrication properties. VW504.00/507.00 could have SAME base stocks as VW505.01 or VW502.00 or BMW-LL04 or BMW-LL01. Many of these oil manufacturers get same base stock, but additive package is different or sulfated ash content is different.
What makes you think that M1 0W40 MB229.5 has different base stock then MB229.51 (Low-SAPS)? It is additive package that is different and probably both oils are of same lubrication quality.
The difference is that M1 0W40 ESP will protect emission system better, and because EU gas has lower sulphur content, it is more suitable for that market then for the US market where you get M1 0W40 Full SAPS oil.
The difference is that High-SAPS oils will do better when it comes to oxidation of oil in environment where gas has high sulphur content (U.S., Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Canada, Brazil etc), which can lead to sludge etc. in the environment where there is low sulphur content (EU, japan), Low-SAPS oils could be used because lower TBN cannot be depleted that fast as in environment with high sulphur content in gas.
Also, what makes you think that todays VW502.00 or MB229.5 or BMW LL-01 oils do not lubricate better then 10yrs ago? Just because it is old spec, does not mean that lubrication quality is same like 10yrs ago.
I don't think we're disagreeing here much.
Don't all VW 504 00 oils also satisfy VW 502 00? So, that means any VW 504 00 oil is already automatically certified for the Porsche if Porsche is recommending VW 502 00.
Porsche is not recommending VW502.00. I said: same oil that meets VW502.00 usually meets A40.
Only Green GC once met A40 of W30 oils.
VW504.00/507.00 replaced VW502.00 ONLY on the EU market. Same as LL-04 replaced LL-01 ONLY on the EU market, and that is because EU market has unified EURO norms when it comes to gas quality and emission quality.
That means that in order for diesel engine to meet EURO V norms, it needs to have DPF filter. That also means that because of sensitivity of DPF filter, high sulfated ash in oil cannot be used, so car manufacturers require Low-SAPS oils to prevent damage on DPF.
But since EU gas is clean, you can use Low-SAPS and still have enough TBN for long drain intervals.
In the US situation is different. Due to higher sulphur content and lower ceten number of diesel fuel, VW for example cannot use long drain interval on 2.0TDI engine as they do in Europe. That is why they cut down OCI from 30,000km (EU) to 16,000km (10,000 miles in the U.S), because they still MUST use Low-SAPS oil because their cars come with DPF filter in the U.S. too. What EPA did is that they became more strict on emissions, but they did not lower sulphur content and other chemicals in diesel fuel enough in order to both meet emission standards and have long drain interval. Now, confusion here comes from requirements for gas engines. Let me elaborate:
The U.S. gas has much more sulphur then EU gas. The difference is even higher then when it comes to diesel engines. Reason why sulphur was lowered for diesel engines is because trucking unions pushed EPA to lower sulphur level in order that new trucks could properly work. Reason is that many engines in the U.S. trucks are coming from EU (Volvo, MACK-Renault, Mercedes) so EPA had to react on the new developments, and that also benefited diesel cars.
Gas is different. GM, Ford, Chrysler were behind the curve. It was in their favor to have high sulphur in a gas because direct injection was primarily coming from Europe. In EU they took care of sulphur in gas, so Euro gassers get Low-SAPS oils, less intake deposits and have stratified injections. But in the U.S. big three lobbied for more stringent NoX requirements which is the byproduct of direct injection. So we do not get stratified injection, and due to sulphur we have to use High-SAPS oil in gassers. However, since Ford, Gm and Chrysler (FIAT) are massively bringing technology from EU, probably we will see push for better gas quality in order to mitigate these issues. That is why you cannot use VW504.00/507.00 in direct injection gas engine more then 5K, because sulphur in gas would "kill" TBN.
So Vw504.00/507.00 or Vw502.00 could have same base stocks and lubrication quality, but additive package is different.
