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#3246407 - 01/12/14 10:32 PM New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours
sdan27 Offline


Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 476
Loc: Michigan
This is a UOA from our LM435a New Holland telehandler. It has a 272 cu in CNH engine. Oil is Service Pro 15w-40 and a Fleetguard LF16015 stratapore oil filter. Oil and filter both have 1574 hours on them. Machine has 6318 hours. Did not drain oil or change filter yet. Will probably take another sample in a year or so. WearCheck USA did the sample.

Fe 31
Cr 3
Mn .7
Ti .1
Ag .2
Al 5.5
Pb 12
Cu 4.2
Sn 1.2
Si 6
Na 5.2
K 3.1
B 12
Mo 74
Mg 720
Ca 1313
P 970
Zn 1199
S 1838

Soot .3%
Oxid 64
Nitr 75
sulf 64
ZDDP 15
TBN 7.3
Visc 14.21
_________________________
'94 F250 Powerstroke. LF9691 primary oil. AH1141 air filter. FS1282, FF5320 fuel filter. WF2071 coolant filter.

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#3246524 - 01/13/14 01:48 AM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
901Memphis Online   content


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 6040
Loc: Northern Kentucky
TBN looks good, most wear metals look good for the hours. Is lead at a normal level for that engine?
_________________________
1999 Ford Taurus 145k (Vulcan v6) - M1 High Mileage 5w30 | Fram Ultra XG 3600
2002 Buick Century 102k - PU 5w30 / Fram Ultra XG 3980 / Filter mag

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#3246869 - 01/13/14 12:00 PM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5627
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Outstanding! Almost 1600 hours on the lube/filter. If we were to equate an hour to the average of 45mph, that would be approximately 70k miles! Your wear rates are crazy low.

The ox and nitration are of note, but clearly this is has not taken affect on the wear yet! Great example of how expected lube properties can shift and not greatly alter wear. I would caution to make sure you're watching for the onset of sludge at some point. Might pop a valve cover off to see what lurks underneath, and at least get some idea how it looks. At times, a bore-scope can make this easy to do without removing the cover itself. Up to you.

Curious if this is the dino or semi 15w-40? How much, if any, top-off?

Makes me wonder where the practical end is here ...
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#3247674 - 01/13/14 11:53 PM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
901Memphis Online   content


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 6040
Loc: Northern Kentucky
I'm curious of the sump size. Couldn't find it on the Google machine.
_________________________
1999 Ford Taurus 145k (Vulcan v6) - M1 High Mileage 5w30 | Fram Ultra XG 3600
2002 Buick Century 102k - PU 5w30 / Fram Ultra XG 3980 / Filter mag

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#3248724 - 01/14/14 11:21 PM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
sdan27 Offline


Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 476
Loc: Michigan
Sump is about 3-4 gallons. Using 15w-40 dino oil. I hadn't really thought of sludge as being an issue as I thought it would show up in the UOA. Is that not true?
_________________________
'94 F250 Powerstroke. LF9691 primary oil. AH1141 air filter. FS1282, FF5320 fuel filter. WF2071 coolant filter.

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#3248803 - 01/15/14 05:06 AM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5627
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Sludge is a term for oxidation and insoluble residuals that manifest into "goo" and such in various engine hiding places. Don't confuse sludge with varnish. Light-to-moderate discoloration in very thin layers on surfaces is just varnish and generally harmless. True sludge is the thick gooey/gummy stuff you see in advertisements signifying the onset of horrors ... Also, don't be alarmed to see some very dark formations in areas where oil pools in pockets; that is totally normal and harmless.

Both the ox and nitration levels are up just a bit on your sample; those can be indicators of contributors to sludge. Now, since we don't have a VOA handy to know the starting points for those criteria, we really can't know how much shift has occured. I'm not inferring you should panic or otherwise be alarmed. I bring this up as something to watch for. Given those numbers, I'd think it would be prudent to take a peek under the valve cover at some point in the near future and just see how things look. Your soot is admirably low, so that's not a concern.

Extended OCIs can be a great savings tool, but they are not something that can be done sort of "halfway" and also be done safely. Not only do you want to do UOAs, but also monitor inputs like fluid levels (coolant, oil, etc) and then also make visual verifications (looking for sludge onset, leaks that may develop, etc). Compression checks are a good idea, but they are difficult on a diesel; easy on a gasser. Etc, etc.

You have a great history on many pieces of equipment showing extended OCIs are viable. This would be yet another. But don't be lured in unwittingly just by the UOA only; use other tools as well to confirm the overall plan is working well.

Your wear, as I said previously, is crazy low. Nothing has had effect on the engine yet. I'm just offering one point of contention to watch for. It's not an assurance of sludge; it's a cautionary note that you should heed to check for sooner rather than later.

Next time, consider a VOA at the onset of an OCI, so that you have some base numbers for comparison. If you are buying in bulk, and still have some of this lube load sitting virgin somewhere, you could send it off to get the info now. You are saving so much money with the extended OCIs, you can afford a VOA once per drum or cases of lube.

Hope I haven't made you wary; just trying to help you have a fully-informed approach to your maintenance plan.
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#3249825 - 01/15/14 11:13 PM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
sdan27 Offline


Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 476
Loc: Michigan
I was kinda thinking of adjusting the valves soon anyway as I've never been into this engine and that should give me an idea of how things look. How does WearCheck use their numbers for Sulfation, Nitration and Oxidation? I mean, they always indicate that the numbers are OK. Like if the number is 74, what does that 74 represent?


Edited by sdan27 (01/15/14 11:18 PM)
_________________________
'94 F250 Powerstroke. LF9691 primary oil. AH1141 air filter. FS1282, FF5320 fuel filter. WF2071 coolant filter.

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#3249909 - 01/16/14 05:16 AM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5627
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
If they (Wearcheck) are indicating things are fine, I'd take that as a positive sign. But, there is nothing wrong with calling them and asking! As a customer, I'd think they would offer you a bit of free advice; why not contact them directly?

Oxidation and Nitration are somewhat unique to each lube, depending upon VOA. What we should look for are not absolute numbers, but the shift and/or significant upward trend in those parameters, to indicate the oil is beginning to undesirably thicken and become overwhelmed with insolubles leading to heavy deposits. There is no hard and fast number to avoid here. Your values seem a bit high, but it's a guess on my part, as we don't know the starting values, nor are there any hard and fast condemnation limits.

The point to understand with those criteria is you're looking for a major escalation in the numbers, and then you'll want to physically check for sludge initialization beginning to form. It may have been premature for me to "warn" you, so to speak. But I think it's important to err on the side of caution here. You've run the lube a LONG time; it's time to do some investigative viewing, that's all. If you have a valve adjustment upcoming, that is an excellent opportunity to check for onset of sludge. I'm not saying it will be present; I'm saying it's time to consider looking for the possiblity of it forming. And, once you check, you can sort of make a mental gage of the number's you're seeing on your reports, and how that relates to the presence or absence of any insolubles formations in the engine.

Make sense?


Edited by dnewton3 (01/16/14 05:19 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#3258798 - 01/24/14 04:09 PM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
sdan27 Offline


Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 476
Loc: Michigan
Got a VOA on the Service Pro 15w-40.

Sili 5.9
Pota 4.3
Boro 5.7
Calc 2001
Magn 395
Moly 21
Sodi 2.5
Phos 1125
Sulf 3294
Zinc 1251

Visc40 105.9
Visc100 15.23
Vis Ind 151
TBN 10.3

Iron 1.1
Nckl .1
Tita .1
Alum 1.4

Didn't really reveal much to me regarding sulfation, oxidation, etc. so I gave them a call and the guy that answered the phone didn't really know but would give my number to someone who knew better and have him call me back.
_________________________
'94 F250 Powerstroke. LF9691 primary oil. AH1141 air filter. FS1282, FF5320 fuel filter. WF2071 coolant filter.

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#3259243 - 01/25/14 05:37 AM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5627
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Yeah - the intent was to understand the starting levels for ox and nitration, so we'd know how much shift has occured.
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#3265144 - 01/30/14 06:13 PM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
sdan27 Offline


Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 476
Loc: Michigan
I got a hold of someone at WearCheck that knows what the numbers represent. They are a % of sulfation, nitration or oxidation with 100 being completely. I might be a little off on how I interpreted what he said but I understood it as that they don't really use those numbers very often when they are analyzing the condition of the oil but they come up with the numbers by looking at the sample through the infrared spectrum. He said usually the presence of sludge becomes more evident with high levels of soot and higher than normal viscosity.
_________________________
'94 F250 Powerstroke. LF9691 primary oil. AH1141 air filter. FS1282, FF5320 fuel filter. WF2071 coolant filter.

Top
#3265843 - 01/31/14 11:56 AM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5627
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Interesting because that would indicate the ox, nit and sulf are all at or greater than 2/3 to 3/4 of such max condition, but the vis and soot are in great shape. Doug Hillary uses 3.5% condemnation for soot; you're at .3! Your vis is in great shape. Seems to be a disconnect between markers in their statement.

Since you indicated you have an opportunity to inspect valves soon due to adjustment cycle, you'll see first hand how accurate their sludge indicators will or will not be.

Keep us informed; very interested in the outcome.


Edited by dnewton3 (01/31/14 11:56 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#3268325 - 02/02/14 05:38 PM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: dnewton3]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4858
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
Dave - Soot condemnation levels in UOAs is an interesting discussion point.

Of course it largely depends on the engine family (two stroke DDs have a max of 0.8%) and many within a family and an application have varying limits. These typically range from 1.5% to around 5%

Then it depends on the lubricant - it must be one that is "approved" for the engine family and the application. And some lubricants do handle soot uptake better than others!

A lot of sludge is simply caused by the use of the wrong lubricant for the application and incorrect OCIs

In my case the engine Manufacturer's limit was 3%, the oil Company's limit was 3.5%. The lubricant's actual maximum soot handling ability was around 6%

When for example I had soot levels near 5% the lubricant's vis at 89 was typically very close to VOA vis of 87. In this particular instance (vis 89) Fe was at 142ppm

Again Dave as you often point out, it is imperative to use the correct lubricant and then adhere to regularised maintenance practices
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3268346 - 02/02/14 06:22 PM Re: New Holland telehandler, 1574 hours [Re: sdan27]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 5627
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Excellent clarification and elaboration, Doug. Thanks.

I would agree that any situation needs to be tailored to each individual situation; engine family, lube, severity of use, etc all need to be considered.

This UOA shows soot at .3%; very low by any accounting!

I look forward to hearing about the valve adjustment and subsequent sludge inspection. Pix would be great!
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top