2011 Honda Civic, M1 AFE 0w20 6.7k/40k

[gpshumway]

Here's the latest UOA for M1 AFE in my Civic. It looks pretty darn good with the exception of the high Aluminum reading and a KV100 that I wish were a bit more stable. Driving is "extra-urban" with fairly frequent long trips of 100mi+. Oil was changed 73 miles after the OLM read 5%. As others have recently noted, AFE has excellent TBN retention and I could likely run it longer. The car is still under warranty and I like the convenience of following the OLM, so please refrain from comments about ROI and drain interval. If I wanted to save money the best thing to do would be to stop doing UOA.

The KV40 came back at 34.4 which along with the 7.3 KV100 calculates out to a VI of 185. My last two UOAs indicate how difficult it is to measure VI accurately. This KV100 is a whopping 2.8% higher than the previous one and the KV40 is 4.6% lower than the previous sample. Both are likely within the measurement accuracy yet the calculated VI for this sample comes out to 185 while the previous sample comes out to 164. Average the two and you get a VI of 174.5, spot on the virgin VI of 173 claimed by Mobil.

I'm not sure what I'm going to try next in the quest to eliminate the Al wear. Possibly a thicker oil, possibly nothing. I think I might take my next sample with 10% left on the OLM and get the report back before changing the oil. Depending on that report I might substitute a quart of M1 AFE 0w30 for the 0w20 in the next change.

Previous UOA thread is HERE for discussion reference.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I didnt think the current AFE was formulated with high % molyDTC. You adding LiquiMoly? I prefered QSUD over the M1 and may try the Helix Ultra 5w20 next.

 

[Roob]

All that urban driving would be perfect for a much higher VI oil......I won't say the names as some get their pants in a wad over it...

Interesting result on the KV40, mobil claims 44.8 for virgin AFE 0w20....

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I didnt think the current AFE was formulated with high % molyDTC. You adding LiquiMoly?


The high moly was in sample 1. I think the current sample here is 3. You can see moly trending down since the first sample; it must have been from a previous oil. In addition, sample 1 had little magnesium, and samples 2 and 3 had M1 levels of magnesium...further evidence/confirmation that sample 1 is a different oil and samples 2 and 3 are M1 0W-20.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Depending on that report I might substitute a quart of M1 AFE 0w30 for the 0w20 in the next change.


Or just try a jug of 0W-30. I've ran 0W-30 in both of ours interchangeably with 0W-20. 0W-30 does "feel" a touch more sluggish at the top end (higher revs), but the engine also feels a little smoother/quieter with it. Give and take.

I noticed no change in fuel economy.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I didnt think the current AFE was formulated with high % molyDTC. You adding LiquiMoly? I prefered QSUD over the M1 and may try the Helix Ultra 5w20 next.


You're reading it upside down. Sample #1 is a mix of Idemitsu 0w20 50/50 API SM (lots of Moly) and API SN. The report is a little counter-intuitive to read. Sample #3 at the bottom of that column is the one under discussion here, 72 ppm of Moly.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: Roob
All that urban driving would be perfect for a much higher VI oil......I won't say the names as some get their pants in a wad over it...

Interesting result on the KV40, mobil claims 44.8 for virgin AFE 0w20....


EXTRA-Urban, meaning not short-trip city driving but rather lots of driving on 4-lane highways which also have stop lights. Not urban, but not steady-state highway cruising either. My wife's commute is 20 miles and we do very few trips short enough that the oil doesn't get up to temp.

And I'm one of those who get my underwear in a bundle over the obsession with VI. It's junk science, though I gave it a shot. Fill #2 in this car was the 200 VI Idemitsu 0w20 and fill #3 (UOA #1 on this report) is a 50/50 blend of the older SM formula and newer 175 VI SN Idemitsu formula. I'm one of very few people actually measuring the VI of USED oil, I'm decidedly unconvinced that the high-VI oils stay that way throughout an OCI.

At any rate, here in the frozen north of Minnesota, M1 AFE's superior MRV viscosity trumps VI any day of the week, and I can get it for $5/qt on my way home rather than driving all over creation and paying $7.50+ for any of the 200+ VI oils.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Depending on that report I might substitute a quart of M1 AFE 0w30 for the 0w20 in the next change.


Or just try a jug of 0W-30. I've ran 0W-30 in both of ours interchangeably with 0W-20. 0W-30 does "feel" a touch more sluggish at the top end (higher revs), but the engine also feels a little smoother/quieter with it. Give and take.

I noticed no change in fuel economy.


I certainly could, but I've got three quarts of 0w20 left in the jug. This is the third fill on M1 0w20 and each time I've bought a five quart jug, the engine takes four quarts. We'll see how I feel in ~July.

 

[KCJeep]

I'll throw this in for you to ponder.

Aluminum has been a real focus of mine, as some of the Jeep 4.0's in my model run have been plagued with broken piston skirts. So I've learned to really watch aluminum.

Two things I've noticed...thicker oils can bring aluminum down...and moly loaded PYB seems to have a positive effect on aluminum as well. FWIW.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I didnt think the current AFE was formulated with high % molyDTC. You adding LiquiMoly? I prefered QSUD over the M1 and may try the Helix Ultra 5w20 next.


You're reading it upside down. Sample #1 is a mix of Idemitsu 0w20 50/50 API SM (lots of Moly) and API SN. The report is a little counter-intuitive to read. Sample #3 at the bottom of that column is the one under discussion here, 72 ppm of Moly.
Sorry for that guys, I clearly didnt get time to properly digest the data table. Agreed that sample(s) 2 and 3 look like current M1 0w20.
I have run the idemitsu and found it very noisy in the subaru and noisy in the Honda L15A7 which should tolerate low HTHS and low vis oils down to 10 grade. My second batch of Valvoline 0w ran completely different than the first. Noisy like a SL castrol Syntec group iii, but with good full throttle power. So far in trials across 4 vehicles, the QSUD is a killer oil - but possibly still not clean enough to consistently make good high rpm full throttle power. Either that or there is no hope for engines running E10 to stay in tune and clean due to some unresolved mechanism. Gidd data nonetheless. Thanks. BTW my Cousin is a Shumway and lives in FL, she is a pro photographer of wild animals and children - sometimes together

 

[Roob]

"And I'm one of those who get my underwear in a bundle over the obsession with VI. It's junk science, though I gave it a shot. Fill #2 in this car was the 200 VI Idemitsu 0w20 and fill #3 (UOA #1 on this report) is a 50/50 blend of the older SM formula and newer 175 VI SN Idemitsu formula. I'm one of very few people actually measuring the VI of USED oil, I'm decidedly unconvinced that the high-VI oils stay that way throughout an OCI."

So it's "junk science" then? I take it that you have the scientific credentials, qualifications and data to back up an ignorant comment like that... Right? Aside from your thorough testing above and ignorant conclusion?

I guess XOM(the people that make your 0w20afe) Toyota/Lexus, Honda and Mazda will be waiting for that data with baited breath...
"Junk science" bwahhhhhhhaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Phishin]

This is why I mix 1.4 quarts of M1 0w40 with 2.8 quarts of M1 0w20AFE....I think my 2.4L Honda engine prefers a 30 weight oil.

I'd like to keep the aluminum IN my engine and OUT of my oil....thank you very much.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
This is why I mix 1.4 quarts of M1 0w40 with 2.8 quarts of M1 0w20AFE....I think my 2.4L Honda engine prefers a 30 weight oil.

I'd like to keep the aluminum IN my engine and OUT of my oil....thank you very much.


Why not just go with M1 0-30?

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted By: tig1


Why not just go with M1 0-30?


I could have. For some reason, I think M1 0w40 is more robust than either 0w20 or 0w30. Therefore, in my brain, which I admit uses fuzzy logic....a little 0w40 mixed in with some 0w20 is better than straight 0w30.

 

[Rand]

Quote:

urban driving is driving in town/city

extra urban driving is the new phrase for driving in the country and

combined driving is the average mpg of both of the above.



Thats a new one for me. I would think extra urban would be
"intensely urban" driving.

Go EPA for using terms 90%+ people will misunderstand unless they are in the business

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: Roob
So it's "junk science" then? I take it that you have the scientific credentials, qualifications and data to back up an ignorant comment like that... Right? Aside from your thorough testing above and ignorant conclusion?

I guess XOM(the people that make your 0w20afe) Toyota/Lexus, Honda and Mazda will be waiting for that data with baited breath...
"Junk science" bwahhhhhhhaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

As a matter of fact I do, but the great thing about science is you don't need to shout your resume like some samurai at a duel, you just need evidence. You got any evidence that High-VI oils improve anything but fuel economy? I didn't think so.

The junk science is the ASSumptions that high-VI oils will flow faster to the operational components of the engine than moderate-VI oils (they don't), and the belief that the phantom extra flow would somehow constitute superior lubrication (it wouldn't). If you think any modern engine gives one whit about the difference between the viscosity of TGMO and M1 AFE at any temperature above -15*C, I've got a bridge to sell you. If high VI substantially improved durability, how did all those Honda and Toyota cars go 200k+ urban miles in cities like Minneapolis on GF-2 conventional 5w30?

But let's not clutter up my UOA thread with this VI nonsense, It's the wrong place any way, go read the last threads on this issue.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3170949/1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3180115/1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3134321/1

Or better yet, go buy the collection of SAE papers written the last time the "w" number requirements were re-evaluated in ~1998. It'll tell you exactly how silly the idea that VI is important in 0w20 is.

 

[Roob]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: Roob
So it's "junk science" then? I take it that you have the scientific credentials, qualifications and data to back up an ignorant comment like that... Right? Aside from your thorough testing above and ignorant conclusion?

I guess XOM(the people that make your 0w20afe) Toyota/Lexus, Honda and Mazda will be waiting for that data with baited breath...
"Junk science" bwahhhhhhhaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

As a matter of fact I do, but the great thing about science is you don't need to shout your resume like some samurai at a duel, you just need evidence. You got any evidence that High-VI oils improve anything but fuel economy? I didn't think so.

The junk science is the ASSumptions that high-VI oils will flow faster to the operational components of the engine than moderate-VI oils (they don't), and the belief that the phantom extra flow would somehow constitute superior lubrication (it wouldn't). If you think any modern engine gives one whit about the difference between the viscosity of TGMO and M1 AFE at any temperature above -15*C, I've got a bridge to sell you. If high VI substantially improved durability, how did all those Honda and Toyota cars go 200k+ urban miles in cities like Minneapolis on GF-2 conventional 5w30?

But let's not clutter up my UOA thread with this VI nonsense, It's the wrong place any way, go read the last threads on this issue.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3170949/1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3180115/1
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3134321/1

Or better yet, go buy the collection of SAE papers written the last time the "w" number requirements were re-evaluated in ~1998. It'll tell you exactly how silly the idea that VI is important in 0w20 is.


That's exactly what I was expecting from a "professional" calling high VI oils "junk science".
Now I'm going to bow out here. I'm not a professional in this field as you claim to be, so my position is obviously not as robust as yours, being a "professional" and all.

Look forward to reading some of your authored papers on "junk science".....

 

[k24a4]

I'll be interested to see what happens if you thicken up the oil a bit. As you know, gp, I was not at all impressed trying the Honda 0w20 in the Accord, both with the tbn retention and elevated Al. My car's original spec is 5w20 and I've gone back to it, with pleasing results.

Although it might be cause for slight concern, in our cases the Al does not meet condemnation limits as determined by the labs. Well, your last two runs, at least.

Thanks for sharing the report.

 

[gpshumway]

It's interesting, my engine is specifically back-spec'd by Honda for 0w20, and the same engine in 2012+ Civics specs only 0w20, so one would assume 0w20 would be safe. M1 AFE's specs indicate it's a bit thicker than many Xw20s, which is one reason I chose it, of course the UOA results indicate it shears quite a bit. In other markets this engine specs anything from 0w20 to 5w40, so Resource conserving 0w30 should be pretty safe. We'll see come the summer.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

High vi conventional oils are highly compromised for FE. A 5w20 should be quite stable compared to garbage 5w30 junk sold the last 15 years. I'd love a 10w20 or 20w20 for Summer and get those slude and varnish demon methacrylates out of the oil