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#3240590 - 01/07/14 12:00 PM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Gokhan]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Perhaps you can shrug off the Cam-Shield reference but the SAE reference is quite clear and authoritative. You should read the SAE reference above carefully.



It is authoritative in defining general concepts but does it address this issue directly? I.e. what is the equivalency? Does 1200 PPM net ZDDP (primary and secondary) content in a dual rated HDEO, with all its extra dispersency and detergency additives, still exceed the level of anti-wear protection found in current SN levels? Or not? Can you answer that?

BTW, neither SN or CJ-4 existed when the book was written. And it does not appear to be an SAE book either. It was published in 2003 and given the timeframe of getting a manuscript from author to print, he was probably reflecting 2001 or 2002 technology. It's 2014 now and there have been many advances since, both in PCMO and HDEO.
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#3240598 - 01/07/14 12:07 PM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Gokhan]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11674
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I read what I could, since the link won't show me much beyond the cover. Nonetheless, from the quote you provided, nothing I read worries me in the least. Of course detergents and dispersants compete with AW compounds. That's nothing new or surprising, and has been observed in gasoline engine oils, too.

I certainly don't need a synthetic. Most of the time I have had the G, it's been on a steady diet of PYB 5w-30. But, I had some Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 in stock and decided to use it up. Given the price and the much easier shopping experience, I'm considering sticking with it for the long run. Note that XOM specifically endorses it for high performance applications.

Do note something about M1 0w-40. If Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is inappropriate because it's dual rated, what makes M1 0w-40 appropriate? After all, it is an A3/B4 rated oil. A3 is for gas, B4 is for diesel. Hence, it's also a dual rated oil.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3240615 - 01/07/14 12:26 PM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Jim Allen]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1567
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Perhaps you can shrug off the Cam-Shield reference but the SAE reference is quite clear and authoritative. You should read the SAE reference above carefully.

It is authoritative in defining general concepts but does it address this issue directly? I.e. what is the equivalency? Does 1200 PPM net ZDDP (primary and secondary) content in a dual rated HDEO, with all its extra dispersency and detergency additives, still exceed the level of anti-wear protection found in current SN levels? Or not? Can you answer that?

BTW, neither SN or CJ-4 existed when the book was written. And it does not appear to be an SAE book either. It was published in 2003 and given the timeframe of getting a manuscript from author to print, he was probably reflecting 2001 or 2002 technology. It's 2014 now and there have been many advances since, both in PCMO and HDEO.

You're now being nothing but argumentative.

It's a SAE publication -- see the second page.

The knowledge ten years ago (when this book was published) applies more than well enough to the present day. On top of that, the book explained the history of ZDDP use in oil and answered your question regarding vintage oil -- yet, you're still being childishly argumentative. You simply don't understand how science works. You must think scientific publications are like iPhones that need to be updated every year. We are not discussing the itty-bitty difference in CJ-4 & CI-4 or SN and SM here. The general ideas in the book apply extremely well to this very particular subject of this thread.

The questions you're asking now are becoming argumentative and ridiculous. No one can answer exactly how much wear protection a particular oil or a given amount of ZDDP offers and we are not here to discuss that. We have been just discussing whether an HDEO or PCMO is generally more suitable for gasoline-engine use, especially one with flat tappets, and that has now been well-answered.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 257,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#3240627 - 01/07/14 12:36 PM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Garak]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1567
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Garak
Do note something about M1 0w-40. If Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is inappropriate because it's dual rated, what makes M1 0w-40 appropriate? After all, it is an A3/B4 rated oil. A3 is for gas, B4 is for diesel. Hence, it's also a dual rated oil.

Hi Garak,

No, I wouldn't consider A3/B4 dual-rated, as all oils fit in one of the ACEA A/B categories. B categories can hardly be considered true diesel categories, as there is virtually no oil sold that doesn't fall into an "A/B" category. In other words, for example, any Pennzoil yellow bottle is a dual-rated oil in that sense. The categories in ACEA corresponding to the API CJ-4 etc. categories are ACEA E9 etc. -- the true heavy-duty-engine-oil categories.

See this reference for the understanding of the ACEA categories.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 257,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#3241065 - 01/07/14 07:30 PM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Gokhan]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

You're now being nothing but argumentative.


Since you want to get personal, I merely am mirroring your snotty, condescending, holier-than-thou style. You've read a book and now you're an instant expert claiming to understand it all and anyone who doesn't bow and scrape doesn't know squat. That's quite your style..

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

It's a SAE publication -- see the second page.


Ain't seeing it. Says it's a 2003 pub from Elsevier B.V. in the Netherlands. No SAE info. If it matters.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan


The knowledge ten years ago (when this book was published) applies more than well enough to the present day. On top of that, the book explained the history of ZDDP use in oil and answered your question regarding vintage oil -- yet, you're still being childishly argumentative. You simply don't understand how science works. You must think scientific publications are like iPhones that need to be updated every year. We are not discussing the itty-bitty difference in CJ-4 & CI-4 or SN and SM here. The general ideas in the book apply extremely well to this very particular subject of this thread.

No one can answer exactly how much wear protection a particular oil or a given amount of ZDDP offers and we are not here to discuss that. We have been just discussing whether an HDEO or PCMO is generally more suitable for gasoline-engine use, especially one with flat tappets, and that has now been well-answered.


Again the personal insults. Basically I agree that the concepts don't change too much but I disagree that the wear protection can't be measured. It can. Whether it has or not in the context of this discussion, we do not know. The practical answer to the question is that an HDEO is probably more than adequate for a flat tappet engine. Is it optimal? I never said that it was, just that it's a viable low cost, easy access option, a generally suitable option, with few downsides for the average joe.
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#3241111 - 01/07/14 08:17 PM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Ponch]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1567
Loc: Los Angeles, California
How is it personal insults when I'm pointing out that you're being argumentative, especially when you're being so? How many references have you posted so far to counter my claims? I've answered many of your questions and your response every time has been to come up with a new question.

I told you to look at the second page (copyright page) of the book but you didn't. It was published by SAE in September 2004, 9 years 4 months ago. It's the second edition:





You dismissed a nine-year-old authoritative SAE book on engine oil saying that it was outdated.

Sure, the wear can be measured. It's measured by the Sequence IVA (ASTM D6891) test. However, good luck finding any results of the test disclosed. The only results disclosed I am aware of were during the Mobil 1 - Valvoline SynPower - Castrol Edge war. The maximum acceptable wear limit is 90 microns and the SM version of Mobil 1 had showed 180 microns of wear, according to private tests:



How is HDEO more affordable than PCMO? The original question in this thread was whether a flat-tappet engine could benefit from higher levels of ZDDP in CJ-4 oils. The answer, according to the references I posted, one of them being authoritative, is probably not, the reason having got to do the with type of ZDDP (primary vs. secondary), amount of dispersants and detergents, and optimization of the additive packages for gasoline or diesel applications. Would a CJ-4 be adequate for flat tappets? Probably, yes, and I've never said no. However, being adequate wasn't the original question. The original question asked whether a CJ-4 oil was a better choice than an SN/GF-5 oil. The answer, according to this reference, is no, and everything it says makes perfect sense. In fact, chances are that an SN/GF-5 oil provides better wear protection for flat tappets than a CJ-4 oil. Extra ZDDP in CJ-4 oils is to make up for wear induced by extra dispersants and detergents in CJ-4 oils, not to provide additional wear protection surpassing wear protection in gasoline engines. In fact, gasoline engines are more wear-prone and they demand more wear protection than diesel engines.

You can keep being argumentative and claim that we still don't know for sure because we have never seen the Sequence IVA results. Yes, you can never be sure which oil provides less wear in Sequence IVA or in real-life driving. However, we can still give a general answer to the question asked here originally.

After being told about the different types of ZDDP (primary, secondary, or a certain mix of a certain ratio of the two) used in diesel vs. gasoline oil and wear-inducing dispersants and detergents in diesel oil, if someone still thinks that 1000 ppm P of ZDDP in a CJ-4 oil will offer more wear protection for his flat tappets than 800 ppm P of ZDDP in an SN/GF-5 oil, well...

Anyway, Jim, I have no hard feelings here -- I was just frustrated by your seemingly argumentative responses. smile
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 257,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#3241346 - 01/08/14 01:21 AM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Gokhan]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11674
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
See this reference for the understanding of the ACEA categories.

I am familiar with the ACEA sequences. I would suggest you do have to look at the B as true diesel categories, and not all oils meet ACEA specifications. PYB certainly does not. Pennzoil certainly has a different bar to meet when it's dealing with PYB versus PU in A5/B5 or A3/B4 types. Heck, we even have people using ACEA E rated oils in various VW diesels that call for VW spec oils.

With respect to my Infiniti, "luxury car" or not, its oil specifications are very modest. It calls for SM/GF-4 in North America, with a bit wider range elsewhere. Generally speaking, the engine isn't calling for anything too terribly specific, like a certain phosphorous or SAPS content.

I'd be interested to hear from Doug or Shannow about the 15w-40 grades commonly used down under. I assume the 15w-40 commonly used in gassers there is dual rated like most 15w-40 grades here.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3241349 - 01/08/14 01:26 AM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Gokhan]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11674
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Another issue, aside from ZDDP, is viscosity. Some of these engines were contemporary with a 10w-30 with a higher HTHS than what one sees in an ILSAC rated oil. Aside from ZDDP, some people do choose an HDEO over a PCMO for certain applications due to the higher HTHS, without having to jump to a 10w-40, 20w-50, or a synthetic in the process.

Personally, I never had issues with ILSAC rated oils in older stuff unless there were serious fuel dilution issues.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3241362 - 01/08/14 01:47 AM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Garak]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1567
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
See this reference for the understanding of the ACEA categories.

I am familiar with the ACEA sequences. I would suggest you do have to look at the B as true diesel categories, and not all oils meet ACEA specifications. PYB certainly does not. Pennzoil certainly has a different bar to meet when it's dealing with PYB versus PU in A5/B5 or A3/B4 types. Heck, we even have people using ACEA E rated oils in various VW diesels that call for VW spec oils.

With respect to my Infiniti, "luxury car" or not, its oil specifications are very modest. It calls for SM/GF-4 in North America, with a bit wider range elsewhere. Generally speaking, the engine isn't calling for anything too terribly specific, like a certain phosphorous or SAPS content.

I'd be interested to hear from Doug or Shannow about the 15w-40 grades commonly used down under. I assume the 15w-40 commonly used in gassers there is dual rated like most 15w-40 grades here.

I was primarily pointing out that the equivalent of API CJ-4 is ACEA E9, not ACEA Bx.

I don't think ACEA licenses A and B categories separately any more -- they all seem to come as A/B combined at the present. ACEA Bx is possibly more similar to the old API CF. It's certainly not meant for heavy-duty engines as the API Cx-4 or ACEA Ex categories.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 257,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#3241368 - 01/08/14 01:58 AM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Garak]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1567
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Garak
Another issue, aside from ZDDP, is viscosity. Some of these engines were contemporary with a 10w-30 with a higher HTHS than what one sees in an ILSAC rated oil. Aside from ZDDP, some people do choose an HDEO over a PCMO for certain applications due to the higher HTHS, without having to jump to a 10w-40, 20w-50, or a synthetic in the process.

Personally, I never had issues with ILSAC rated oils in older stuff unless there were serious fuel dilution issues.

xW-30 oils with higher HTHS values are nothing but xW-35 oils. Both the KV @ 100 and HTHSV are about 15% higher than a typical xW-30, with the same proportional increase -- so, an xW-35 so to speak.

I wouldn't be that picky about viscosity and if the manufacturer recommended such an oil ("xW-35" so to speak), I would pick xW-40 in the case of a diesel engine or flat-tappet engine (because of wear concerns) and either the xW-30 or xW-40 for a modern gasoline engine depending on driving style and particular engine. For gasoline engines, if wear is not a concern, I like smaller viscosity because of lower (= better) oil pressure, better fuel economy, and more compliance with the various GF-5 specs.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 257,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#3241369 - 01/08/14 02:01 AM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Gokhan]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11674
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Certainly. The E sequences are based upon the API specifications, which certainly isn't the case with the A and B sequences, and no, I'm not aware of any pure "A" or pure "B" oils, either. But, if an oil is likely to be used in a European diesel of some sort, and, specifically, meets the minimum specifications, there are obviously standards to be met that other, non-ACEA oils may or may not meet - we just don't know.

I think we in North America focus way too much on the differences between HDEOs and ILSAC stuff, rather than the similarities. CAFE's legacy isn't so much thinner oils or reduced phosphorous content, but a lot of alarmism about the differences between a "gasoline" oil, an HDEO, and a "motorcycle" type oil.

It's great that we can use a thinner oil in a gasoline engine without adverse consequences. It's also important that such oils are marketed appropriately to ensure someone doesn't toss them into his new Cummins. On the other hand, just because it says "Rotella" doesn't mean it's relegated to the big rigs.

You want a real kick in the head with respect to pricing? Our wonderful Walmarts charge about twice as much for M1 TDT as the distributor charges for Delvac 1. Go figure.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3241370 - 01/08/14 02:06 AM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Gokhan]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11674
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I wouldn't be that picky about viscosity and if the manufacturer recommended such an oil ("xW-35" so to speak), I would pick xW-40 in the case of a diesel engine or flat-tappet engine (because of wear concerns) and either the xW-30 or xW-40 for a modern gasoline engine depending on driving style and particular engine.

I wouldn't be, either, necessarily, but I could see why others would. Some would be deathly afraid of a 15w-40 as too thick. They would prefer to use a 10w-30 HDEO as still within grade for their vehicle that originally called for 10w-30.

On that vein, my dad was into thin before it was in. I was considering running a 5w-30 HDEO in my LTD at the time (it was consuming 5w-30 PCMO heavily, and with our weather, just jumping up grades isn't necessarily wise). He made it very clear of what he thought about using that "thick stuff" in there. wink
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3241666 - 01/08/14 10:29 AM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Ponch]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4477
Loc: NW Ohio
I spent some time this morning rereading the relevant parts of both the referenced texts above, the SAE and the Dutch book referenced later in the the thread, and I'm beginning to think I didn't give the ZDDP differences between an HDEO and a PCMO enough weight in the context of a flat tappet engine.
Further reading in Noria texts and others (I have an "HDEOs in gassers" file) tends to reinforce this, though when dual rated HDEOs are compared to PCMOs, the cautions are much less strident vs a diesel-only rated HDEO vis-a-vis detergency. The detergency seems to be the most significant issue.

HDEOs seem to be a better choice in really old engines (flat tappet or otherwise) that lack filtration, or at least full flow filtration, because the detergency and dispersancy qualities of an HDEO are much more useful in that type of crankcase environment.

At the end of the day, while I think an HDEO has "enough" anti wear protection for most flat tappet engines, it may be less near optimal than I originally thought. We have no real way of knowing one way or the other until someone does some wear tests or we get inside info from an oil manufacturer. Prudence would then dictate going with the more suitable oil, especially in a muscle car engine. So I think I'm going to say, "I stand corrected" here.

As to the question originally asked ( see the red highlighted part below), at the risk of continuing to be argumentative, I still think the general answer to that is "yes." HDEO's have "enough" wear protection generally speaking. We know that to meet SM specs, an HDEO has to have the wear protection to go with it. For the most part, the lube mfrs think SM and SN is backwards compatible into the flat tappet era, so an HDEO is AT LEAST at that level. Without knowing the exact ratio of primary to secondary ZDDP, etc. or actual wear tests, I can't say definitively what the end results might be but I suspect the HDEO would show less wear than the average SM or SN PCMO in a standard performance flat tappet engine.

"Hey all... I was wondering if today's CJ-4 HDEO lubes have enough anti-wear additives to protect older engines with flat tappet cams? I know that the CJ-4 HDEO's have reduced amounts of certain additives compared to older CI-4 version. I got asked this question today by a friend who has an older muscle car with a flat tappet motor. He was told that he should still run a ZDDP additive with a current CJ-4 lube if he chooses to run a diesel motor oil. Are CI-4 oils even available anymore besides from Amsoil?
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#3241707 - 01/08/14 11:01 AM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Jim Allen]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26520
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I got asked this question today by a friend who has an older muscle car with a flat tappet motor. He was told that he should still run a ZDDP additive with a current CJ-4 lube if he chooses to run a diesel motor oil. Are CI-4 oils even available anymore besides from Amsoil?


he's probably better served with an oil like M1 0w-40 which is setup with a higher level of AW additives and is also a PCMO IMHO.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
06 Charger R/T

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#3241817 - 01/08/14 12:49 PM Re: CJ-4 oil for older flat tappet engines.. [Re: Jim Allen]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11674
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I got asked this question today by a friend who has an older muscle car with a flat tappet motor. He was told that he should still run a ZDDP additive with a current CJ-4 lube if he chooses to run a diesel motor oil. Are CI-4 oils even available anymore besides from Amsoil?

I think the concern over something with flat tappets and very high spring pressures might be warranted. For something of a more modest output, I wouldn't worry. I do recommend VR1 fairly often and for good reason. Beyond that, with the really high performance stuff, there are boutiques and dedicated race oils, of course. And none of us here, to my knowledge, claimed that HDEO was interchangeable with a race oil or ideal for flat tappets with very high pressures.

And you know my stance on additives. They're a last resort. I did use a ZDDP additive for break in of the F-150 after rebuild, but that's simply because I had no desire to use 20w-50 VR1 for a winter rebuild (the 10w-30 is rare here) and there simply weren't a lot of other options at the time; even Defy was just ink on a press release.

I still contend that the detergency issue with HDEOs is overblown. Soot carrying capability did go up with CJ-4, but TBN and SA have trended down, generally speaking. Take a look at the elemental VOA numbers and TBN of M1 0w-40, Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40 (CI-4), and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 (CJ-4). Detergency (from the elemental perspective, which is all we can see in a cheap VOA, of course), SA, and TBN all go down as me move from M1 0w-40 to the CJ-4 Delvac 1. The TBN drops further if you go to something like Delvac 1 ESP 0w-40, which lacks the higher minimum TBN ACEA standard of the 5w-40.

And we shouldn't allow ourselves to fall into the trap of ignoring what we can't see, either. Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 is CJ-4 with what are roughly GF-5 levels of phosphorous. Obviously, something else is fulfilling the ZDDP's role there. And, soot holding has improved while elemental detergents and TBN have dropped.

Oils are compromises, and detergency versus anti-wear is not a new issue. Should we go one step further and return to ND oils? Is Pennzoil's clean engine campaign going to leave a bunch of premature engine failures in its wake? I'm not concerned. As I already mentioned, the Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 sheet endorses its use in high performance gasoline applications, specifically. In my use, I'm not concerned about ZDDP in any event.

Doug has gone through this Delvac 1 in a gasser argument before, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least that he doesn't wish to go through it again. There are too many deaf ears out there. I, however, am glad to be able to learn from his decades of experience at the pinnacle of the industry and put some of that knowledge into practice in my own way.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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