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#3223686 - 12/21/13 01:23 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: MolaKule]
martinq Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 1023
Loc: ON, Canada
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
No, the common term in use is "struts" and "shocks" for a device that dampens mechanical oscillations on vehicle suspension systems.

It's common for mechanics and the general public to use those terms but in racing/engineering circles, damper is more commonly (and accurately) used.


Edited by martinq (12/21/13 01:24 PM)

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#3223741 - 12/21/13 02:02 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
Regarding suspension of WS2. I have a jar of WS2 (not IF) suspended in drugstore Isopropyl Alcohol. I has sat for months and still had what appears to be a significant amount of WS2 in suspension. Eyeball measurement only. I have poked in it and there is some on the bottom. A simple shake put it all back in suspension. And these are fairly large (600nm) particles. I can not observe any clumping.

It works great for getting the WS2 into sliding interfaces and bearings, etc. without leaving any carrier residue. The IF WS2 I have is in mineral oil (from APNano) and not nearly as handy for this sort of application.

Parts can simply be burnished with the material to bond a layer of WS2 to the surface. With some creative work, users could probably come up with an apparatus to spray items they want to lubricate. It can be done with the powder. I would imagine it could be done with a volatile carrier (with proper fire precautions). It does not require a very high pressure to spray bond the powder. Someone could treat engine parts, for example, while rebuilding an engine. That could get the cylinder heads and eliminate the need for greases to deal with initial start up.

If you start spraying the nano sized particles around, you really should take precautions about breathing the stuff. You are not likely going to find a mask that will keep it out. I got careless with the 600nm powder and I believe I felt an effect in my lungs for several days.

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#3223754 - 12/21/13 02:13 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: MolaKule]
Garak Online   content


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11300
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
You're both right. British English usually refers to shock dampers. American (and Canadian) English refer to shock absorbers, or we just call them shocks. wink
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3223817 - 12/21/13 03:21 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: martinq]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 6977
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
No, the common term in use is "struts" and "shocks" for a device that dampens mechanical oscillations on vehicle suspension systems.

It's common for mechanics and the general public to use those terms but in racing/engineering circles, damper is more commonly (and accurately) used.


^^^Yes, and I forgot that the Brits (and yes, most in the racing tech arena) call them dampers. duh
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 170K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (80/20 mix)
Amsoil EaO 64 filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Ravenol MTF-2

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#3225321 - 12/23/13 09:48 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
67King Offline


Registered: 10/19/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Knoxville, TN
THis will be my last post in this thread, since there was a question asked earlier that I said I would address. I just don't have time or desire to get into any kind of sword fight, as evidenced by my relatively low post count. But due to some communications I have received, I apparently need to address some issues. First, I'll start out by saying that I recognize most people are reading this thread to learn about nanotechnology as a lubricant, most of you in oils. I am here to try to help educate folks. I recognize that new technology (e.g. NT in oil, yellow-metal-friendly EP additives yielding a GL4/GL5 oil) can be disruptive to the status quo, and that will inherently bring about those trying to discredit it, and I apologize if any of my comments have fanned any of those flames. It took hot rodders decades to move from things like carbretors and blowers to fuel injection and turbos. But the upper echelon of racing embraces it much earlier, as has been the case with the NT in oils, reference some of the awards it has received ,and its use by some teams under confidentiality, but I'll say that the IndyCar team here isn't the only major open wheel series with intercontinental reach to use it.

I have not been back here since my last post. I have, however, received a few communications from other readers about it, and apparently, among other things, my claims of my credentials have been called into question. Like I said, I have not been back, if I misunderstood the fellow who called me or the couple of PM's from others, then I apologize for the confusion and you can skip to the next few paragraphs.

My claims are quite easily verified. Ford will verify that I worked there as an engineer from 2000-2007, this can be verified by calling (800)248-4444. You can also find a picture of an older business card of mine, laying down with the former director of V-Engine (now VP) on my Photobucket site:
Business card It is a very old one, just one that I found, though Bob's (name hidden) is newer. I was doing a similar job, but with more responsibilities, on the 2011 S197 (5.0L Coyote) when I left.

You can call Georgia Tech's bursar's office (I think that's the one to call) to verify that I have two degrees in Materials Engineering, 1997 and 2000, at (404)894-4618. If they can't deal with alumni info, I'm sure they can direct you to whomever you need to call.

You can contact the national PCA and verify that I am an instructor, my number ending in 8293. Or you can read this thread from one of my students. It also has pictures of my car in there, the white and gold 944. You may notice it is not out on the paddock with most of the rest of the cars. It is in the tech shed......because as I mentioned, I'm one of the tech inspectors. Student mention with pictures of my white/gold 944T..

Here are a couple of shots of the shop where we rebuild Leda dampers/shocks/struts, or whatever you prefer to call the devices that damp the spring inputs (and in reality, this is more than just oscillations, as the adjustable ones are used to control the rate of weight transfer, which is an extraordinarily useful tool). I stuck a liter of the Millers oil up there since apparently I've been accused of making up stuff. The stuff in the apple juice bottle is oil for said dampers. We get it in 5 gallon buckets, so it is easier to transfer it to a bottle where we can pour it in the bodies.
Rods and other parts
Remote resivoirs, bodies, bushings, etc.

And to show that I do have a sense of humor, I also have a picture of a device used to dampen springs:
Dampening a set of KW's

And here is a folder you can go to to check out pictures of the race car at various points of the build, mostly the last 2 pages:
Track car

Anyway, on to the question about applying the NT at the factory. I don't think this is practical or a good idea for a couple of reasons. The biggest is that it isn't a coating like DLC, or any other type of PVD/CVD coating. The bonding of the NT is much weaker, primarily van der Waals forces. It is kind of like ester or ZDDP, it is attracted to metal surfaces, but doesn't form a durable bond. It will stay in suspension until it is put in a crankcase, at which point it becomes attracted to the metal. Complete "coating" is time/temperature dependent, we typically say 15 minutes at about 115C for the race oils. It also primrily fills the low spots moreso than an entire surface, so it makes the asperities much smaller. It will, however, stay on the surfaces after you drain the oil, but if the oil used to replenish it doesn't have the NT additive, it will eventually become depleted. Now I believe, but am not certain, that it would drastically slow down the time it takes for the rings to seat, meaning you really would not want to have it in the engine when you first start it up, or at least you wouldn't want it on the cylinder walls. It may prevent the rings from seating (which in reality is the process the peaks from cross hatching being worn down appreciably). Now, it could be that the feature size of those is large enough that the NT wouldn't be able to fully protect it, but I would still think having it running through the engine during break-in would be detrimental, for the same reason you generally don't want ANY friction modifiers in a break-in oil.

Seems I recall a question about putting it in fuel. I can't comment due to confidentiality, but the friction reduction is most prominent in the cylinder bores, where the majority of boundary lubrication occurs (although as oils get thinner, some is occurring in the cranktrain). That said, there isn't an engine guy in the world who wants to wet cylinder walls with fuel, as it will wash away the oil, and lead to premature bore wear. It does happen occasionally with open valve injection (OVI), though at least at Ford, OVI was typically avoided, though occasionally used (there is a small benefit to charge cooling under high load conditions).

Anyway, I apologize again for any ambiguity caused when I used more engineering type terminology rather than general usage. Note I will probably call transmissions gearboxes as often as not, too, and expect most folks to know what I mean. I apologize for letting external factors get in teh way of a discussion. Will try to keep my eye on other threads, and hope to avoid further urinating contests.


Edited by 67King (12/23/13 09:55 AM)
_________________________
944T - SP3 race car, 944TS "hot rod", 968 driver, 67GTO, 66 Bronco, 10 535i M-Sport, 6.7L Cummins Ram, 07 R320CDI - all with Millers

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#3225554 - 12/23/13 02:12 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
martinq Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 1023
Loc: ON, Canada
67King, extra thanks for all the detailed info. Please keep us posted (somewhere) when you have news of new products, applications and availability.

Cheers!

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#3226112 - 12/24/13 03:00 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
Olas asked a couple of pages back about Archoil. I could not find one of their products on the couple of sites they have. I just ran across a third site of theirs that is for weapons lubrication. It has the missing part number and some others with nano WS2.

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#3226399 - 12/24/13 11:20 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14468
Loc: Midwest
Some advice to MR 67King to avoid a p****g contest:

1. alternety and others are deeply interested in WS nanotechnnology so they simply want information on application of WS2 to engine oil, if I read the posts correctly,

2. Don't insult the intelligence of BITOG members by speaking down to them. BITOG has a large number of very intelligent people from all walks of life and from all education levels.

3. People truly experienced and educated in a particular area will show that in their responses.

4. Unless you are unsure of your credentials, then there is no reason to include them within a post. Put them in your Profile so people can look them up if they are interested.

The article I mentioned from TLT one page back suggests a 5% solution of their WS2 suspension in lubricants.


BTW, we should, if we are to be historically correct, properly call these devices Dashpots. The fluid within these Daspots are properly called hydraulic fluids because that is the fluid's function.


Edited by MolaKule (12/24/13 11:33 AM)
_________________________
"It only knows that it needs, it does not know WHAT it needs." Spock from Star Trek smile

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#3228334 - 12/26/13 01:56 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
I looked at the TLT article. Just FYI, the article is from and about the source I have been referencing. The material they are talking about is the IF WS2. The additive I bought is from them.

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#3246042 - 01/12/14 04:23 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
simple_simon Offline


Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 103
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Why not just use the NanoLub products that can be added to any motor oil or transmission fluid since Miller's range is severly lacking?

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#3246086 - 01/12/14 05:00 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
alternety Offline


Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Pacific NW
I do now. It was not available earlier except from Israel in case lots.

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#3255545 - 01/21/14 07:14 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
Nebroch Offline


Registered: 05/16/13
Posts: 142
Loc: Finland
User experience anyone?

I bought some WS2 powder from Ebay and applied it to old angle grinder gear. The gear was making very nasty sound especially when starting it, but after some running with powder it seems to run notably quieter.

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#3255880 - 01/22/14 05:40 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26460
Loc: a prison island
Damper is a correct terminology...damping is a specific function in response to stimulus in mechanical, electrical, and hydraulic systems..."shock absorber" for sprung mechanical systems is a loose vernacular, albeit common.

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#3270988 - 02/05/14 07:08 AM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: MolaKule]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5247
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
I'm not sure why you think that your ignorance is my problem, but I assure you that you are quite mistaken.


And your ignorance of basic mechanics, lubricants, and the English language is your problem.

The word "Damp," when used in the verb tense, means to reduce the amplitude of oscillations.

To Dampen (verb) means to deaden, depress, reduce or lessen mechanical oscillations.

You were thinking of the word, dampness," which mean to, "wet."

"Damping" is the effect of reducing the Amplitude of mechanical oscillations over time.

In a shock absorber or "shock," (common term) the damper (noun) is the assembly of the fluid, valve, cylinder, and piston that dampens or reduces mechanical oscillations. But in everyday terms, this device, with mounting posts is called a "shock absorber." If you are purchasing a device that contains a shock and spring assembly with mounting posts, you order a "strut."



OK, this was a very informative thread, before all this name calling started.

MolaKule, please apologize or stop posting here if you have nothing constructive to add.

Alternety, thanks for opening our eyes for this paradigm shift in lubrication.

67King, ignore the haters. I enjoyed reading your posts.

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#3271508 - 02/05/14 03:46 PM Re: IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant [Re: alternety]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5247
Loc: southeast US
Coming back to the topic, I found a nice dissertation paper going over chemistry, synthesis, and tribology of IF-WS2 nanoparticles.

According to my other research, there is only one patented source of IF-WS2 (Israeli parent company of AppNano). Now, that staff was around for over a decade. Why are we hearing about it just now? Cost coming down?

One interesting thing in the paper was a figure on the page 59. Adding IF-WS2 to formulated oil decreased friction slightly, but INCREASED wear. Unformulated oil benefited from IF-WS2 in both friction and wear departments, with phenomenally low friction, but wear still worse than additized oil.

Based on that, I don't think it's wise to buy IF-WS2 and mix with your existing oil.

Here is the paper: www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:565698/FULLTEXT01.pdf

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