E-85. I think I'm a convert.

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Originally Posted By: Jocephus
I drive the same route 3 times per week on highway...146 miles round trip. I Set the cruise control when I hit I-40 so for probably 130 miles i'm on the cruise control.

My Escalade with 6.2L V8
On 100% gas I get 18.4 mpg
On 10% ethanol I get 15.7 mpg
On E85 I get 13.2 mpg

I only run 100% gas now after doing the test for a month...even wrote my congressman a letter with the full supportive documentation. Heard nothing back.

I still don't understand the governments thinking of how getting less gas mileage saves fuel.


Hummm, no.

Ethanol has about 34% less energy per unit of volume. That being said, an E10 mix should only net about a 3.7%(+/- a small amount) drop in economy... not a 14.6% drop that you listed. So if your 100% Gas fuel economy is that actual economy of the vehicle, then you should expect you MPG to drop to 17.96mph... less than 0.5mpg. Even an full E85 you should get 14.6.

The point of adding ethanol was not to "increase MPG" but rather as a oxygenator to decrease carbon monoxide emissions in a post MTBE era as MTBE was a MAJOR source of groundwater pollution. I already think there is something in the water in same places and adding more MTBE would not be a good thing. The other big reason for ethanol is that is reduces the need for FOREIGN oil. I rather give money to switchgrass/algae farmers (less to corn farmers) than countries in "less stable" areas.

Also, if you complain about mileage, drive a more economical vehicle. Even the old V8 DeVilles could get upper 20/30+mpg highway.
 
Originally Posted By: Archangel
The thing with Gas or E85, is that are different fuels and to run best need different engine set ups.
If an engine runs a 9:1 compression ratio using straight gasoline, that same engine could probably go with 11:1 or even 12:1 on E85.
Higher compression makes for a more efficient engine until it starts to knock, and the E85 will handle much more compression.

Bump up the compression and the E85 will get much better mileage.
You just can't go back to Gasoline without either alcohol, or water injection as an antiknock.


That is what I want the OEM's to give us an option for. A E85 "only" engine that has a higher compression ratio and tuned for E85 use only. That would be a killer engine I would have no problem opening my wallet for. I will leave things the way they are in my pickup, but I know the day will come where I will have an engine built for E85 only use.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
All the above info brought to you by the Farm Bureau of course.

They have no agenda, they're simply here to do what's right!

C'mon, man, not everyone drinks that corn liquor here...


Prove the statements wrong. You provide evidence of ethanol subsidies existing today. You provide the numbers of how the annual U.S. corn production is divided up. Prove that DDG is not a viable product from ethanol production that isn't in demand world wide due to it's benefits as a high protein feed supplement that is more easily digestible by livestock and can help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.

I counter that you have bought into an agenda that fits your world view, and the facts will not sway you. While the Farm Bureau is not as pure as the wind driven snow, those on the other side of the fence are not saints that have everyone's interest at heart either.
 
6 Months later...OK then. You like aldehydes, I don't. We buy 4k a month in fuel here, so we have a VERY big issue with fuels, taxes, production, etc.

Every argument here also ignores the HUGE CAFE credits given for gas hog FFV's from the major mfgrs. Do you corn liquor guys just ignore those? Are they free? Their unreal cost is never included because that would skew the numbers the wrong way. So just ignore those then.

There's more, but I can't change your mind with facts, and you could easily spend 30 minutes and look at BOTH sides of the issue yourself. No one pays attention to the specifics when the BIG MONEY is being divvied up! Details, Details.

Here's a little article that is as glossy as they come, from a publication that IMO promotes the stuff:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm
 
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
6 Months later...OK then. You like aldehydes, I don't. We buy 4k a month in fuel here, so we have a VERY big issue with fuels, taxes, production, etc.

Every argument here also ignores the HUGE CAFE credits given for gas hog FFV's from the major mfgrs. Do you corn liquor guys just ignore those? Are they free? Their unreal cost is never included because that would skew the numbers the wrong way. So just ignore those then.

There's more, but I can't change your mind with facts, and you could easily spend 30 minutes and look at BOTH sides of the issue yourself. No one pays attention to the specifics when the BIG MONEY is being divvied up! Details, Details.

Here's a little article that is as glossy as they come, from a publication that IMO promotes the stuff:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm


I'm not trying to be an [censored] here but you still did not provide any facts or data to prove tired_trucker wrong, just side stepped his questions.

Theres so many arguments out there that its hard for people to get the real truth. I've looked at both sides, its big oil companies vs ethanol and that's what it really boils down to. Whoever has the most money to lobby, gets what they want... there's no denying that. Big oil still gets millions if not billions of tax breaks/subsidies every year. No matter what we burn in our engines, gasoline, diesel, or ethanol... they're all "bad" but some worse than others.

Once again I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just wanting more information and another view point on it.

We all know how unreliable consumer reports is too, not to mention a lot of that data is out of date from 3 years ago.

Ethanol from corn is not the final answer to eliminating gasoline but is a stepping stone in the advancement of renewable fuels. Algae ethanol and cellulosic ethanol, the next generation ethanol production, looks very promising. There's also reseach into converting form ethanol to isobutanol, which takes less to produce and has a higher energy content than ethanol.
 
^^^I agree with your predictions for the future. But unfortunately for all of us we get to live in the here and now.

Aldehydes are produced when you burn ethanol. Can't sidestep that, as it is a fact. Google it for a comprehensive list of both scientific and alarmist papers. I am sure technology has an answer for us, but the cars right now do not remove this from exhaust. They simply lower it to what is allegedly an acceptable level. IMO it is amazing how the environmental activists are willing to ignore this item to get more ethanol.

I posted the CR article because it was a source often quoted here, not because I am a fan. There are many more available online, some of which are not as kind.

You and I are in absolute agreement that alternative fuels will eventually come online for us. But I also believe that as long as the lobbyists prowl the halls of our Congress there is little hope for the "best" solution and far more impetus for the most profitable one! The BILLIONS in tax credits for FFV's is a very real issue that is directly related to ethanol in fuel, yet it is routinely ignored.

No one anywhere can refute TT's statements above because they are basically true. They simply focus on the positive aspects and ignore the rest...
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
6 Months later...OK then. You like aldehydes, I don't. We buy 4k a month in fuel here, so we have a VERY big issue with fuels, taxes, production, etc.

Every argument here also ignores the HUGE CAFE credits given for gas hog FFV's from the major mfgrs. Do you corn liquor guys just ignore those? Are they free? Their unreal cost is never included because that would skew the numbers the wrong way. So just ignore those then.

There's more, but I can't change your mind with facts, and you could easily spend 30 minutes and look at BOTH sides of the issue yourself. No one pays attention to the specifics when the BIG MONEY is being divvied up! Details, Details.

Here's a little article that is as glossy as they come, from a publication that IMO promotes the stuff:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm


Wow, you buy 4K a month of fuel. I'm impressed. Pretty soon you will be up to the 7.5K or more I spend a month in fuel. 21,000 gallons of diesel, and about 2000 gallons of gasoline (or E85 depending on pricing) in a year.

So what if ethanol produces some nasties. So does petroleum. Heck, unless we can get to a hydrogen fueled internal combustion engine like Popular Mechanics did in 1973, anything we burn in an engine is going to produce stuff we all don't like. I learned a long time ago not to lose sleep over to many issues. And since we live in a lot cleaner America than we did in 1970, I think things are going just fine. Ethanol and what it produces is not on the short list of things to worry about. E85, at today's pricing offers me a reasonable fuel at a lower cost per mile than anything else I could put in my pickup's fuel tank.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Prove the statements wrong. You provide evidence of ethanol subsidies existing today. You provide the numbers of how the annual U.S. corn production is divided up. Prove that DDG is not a viable product from ethanol production that isn't in demand world wide due to it's benefits as a high protein feed supplement that is more easily digestible by livestock and can help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.


Ruminants eat grass...where's the grass in either (subsidised) corn, or in distillery leftovers ?

Making cows eat cows and sheep because it made good economic sense didn't make a great deal of sense overall a few years ago, did it ?
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
E85, at today's pricing offers me a reasonable fuel at a lower cost per mile than anything else I could put in my pickup's fuel tank.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/multinationals-carving-up-africa-for-food-20131229-301jk.html

Quote:
Liberia has reportedly signed concessions for nearly one-third of its national territory in recent years. Half of the Democratic Republic of the Congo's agricultural lands are being leased to grow crops, including palm oil for the production of biofuels. Perhaps the largest single venture to date is the ProSAVANA Project in northern Mozambique, where an area roughly the size of Switzerland and Austria combined has been leased by Brazilian and Japanese companies to produce soybeans and maize for export.
 
Note that no one has commented on the HUGE dollar amount of tax credits issued for the manufacture of FFV's.

It's a multi BILLION dollar a year biz, these things are traded like dollars.

None of our ethanol proponents mentioned this huge Government subsidy...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Prove the statements wrong. You provide evidence of ethanol subsidies existing today. You provide the numbers of how the annual U.S. corn production is divided up. Prove that DDG is not a viable product from ethanol production that isn't in demand world wide due to it's benefits as a high protein feed supplement that is more easily digestible by livestock and can help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.


Ruminants eat grass...where's the grass in either (subsidised) corn, or in distillery leftovers ?

Making cows eat cows and sheep because it made good economic sense didn't make a great deal of sense overall a few years ago, did it ?


How is corn subsidized? The corn price support is based on a floor price of $1.79 a bushel. It hasn't been that low since the early 90's, and as such, there has not been a price support payment made this century. And subsidies to ethanol producers were eliminated in the 2011 budget extension.

And livestock cannot benefit from DDG? Well, let's see.... DDG is highly digestible, It is also been proven to help prevent intestinal colitis in cattle, It is a high protein supplement. Still trying to figure out how that has anything to do with making animals eat animals.

And ruminants do not just eat grass. Come on, you are showing your ignorance. They eat seeds, legumes, and grasses. And guess what? Corn is a grass! Bet ya' forgot that. Yep, corn is a grass and the kernels are no different that the seeds from oats (another grass) that cattle dearly love. Legumes like alfalfa, clover... cattle prefer the seed pods and leaves. Just watch cattle eat and see what they leave behind. All you must have ever seen them eat is sweet grass. They do like that, no doubt.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Note that no one has commented on the HUGE dollar amount of tax credits issued for the manufacture of FFV's.

It's a multi BILLION dollar a year biz, these things are traded like dollars.

None of our ethanol proponents mentioned this huge Government subsidy...


Ah, you make the classic mistake. Thinking a credit is a subsidy. News flash... subsidies are direct payments made to the subsidized entity. A tax credit is just a credit that reduces the amount of tax that entity has to pay.

But let's go with your roll. Let's eliminate all tax credits! So everyone must give up their mortgage interest deduction, their child care tax credit, their dependent deduction, their earned income tax credit, etc, etc, etc. If business must give them up, then what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Every one should have to give them up. Now then we will be talking about everyone "paying their fair share".
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And ruminants do not just eat grass. Come on, you are showing your ignorance. They eat seeds, legumes, and grasses. And guess what? Corn is a grass! Bet ya' forgot that. Yep, corn is a grass and the kernels are no different that the seeds from oats (another grass) that cattle dearly love. Legumes like alfalfa, clover... cattle prefer the seed pods and leaves. Just watch cattle eat and see what they leave behind. All you must have ever seen them eat is sweet grass. They do like that, no doubt.


Man, you are a classic...I guess that I've been learned some today...Guess old Dougie from Dungog in Central NSW was correct feeding stale bread to his cattle (by the truckload from the bakery)...bread is wheat, and wheat is grass, just like distillery slops.

He killed a lot of them before the cows learned that bread is grass...
 
I think TT made a "classic" misdirection play there^^^

And mocking the tax credits still didn't address the economic benefits of them, which are Billions of dollars. The ethanol folks never want to talk about that part, so they just use derision instead...
 
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But tax credits are just a reduction is the amount of taxes having to be paid. Sure it benefits the ethanol industry, but they also benefit everyone that has tax credits they can use for their own personal taxes. I was not mocking, I was just stating that it is disingenuous to demand they be eliminated from business, but no one wants to give them up for their own tax situation.

And dried distellers grain cannot be compared to bread someone fed their cattle. DDG has a long, long history as a prime livestock feed supplement. If the livestock industry was experiencing mass die offs, they would discontinue using the stuff. You really need to have a chat with the local ag extension office of your state university. They can really clue you in.
 
You and your engine would not like it. Unless an engine is designed to run E85, putting it in is not a good idea. There are ECM tuners available that enable a person to reprogram their vehicle to use E85. Virtually all fuel systems made this century will handle E85. OEM's do not like to stockpile two different kinds of fuel systems. They have been using ethanol ready fuel components almost exclusively since the late 90's.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And dried distellers grain cannot be compared to bread someone fed their cattle.


You are the one that stated that I was ignorant, and the Distillers Grain was essentially grass...
 
I would be good with this. Let's get one flat tax rate too. No reduced taxes just because you don't make enough, or have a different flavor of income.

Back to your back and forth
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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Note that no one has commented on the HUGE dollar amount of tax credits issued for the manufacture of FFV's.

It's a multi BILLION dollar a year biz, these things are traded like dollars.

None of our ethanol proponents mentioned this huge Government subsidy...


Ah, you make the classic mistake. Thinking a credit is a subsidy. News flash... subsidies are direct payments made to the subsidized entity. A tax credit is just a credit that reduces the amount of tax that entity has to pay.

But let's go with your roll. Let's eliminate all tax credits! So everyone must give up their mortgage interest deduction, their child care tax credit, their dependent deduction, their earned income tax credit, etc, etc, etc. If business must give them up, then what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Every one should have to give them up. Now then we will be talking about everyone "paying their fair share".
 
I can deal with a flat tax thing, or better yet, the Fair Tax, though I don't see either as making much headway anytime soon. There are too many lobbyists that push various agendas that like the tax code as it is. I get a lot of little "credits" by doing things a certain way in my business, but I have no problem giving them up if there indeed was some form of general taxation that was realistic and fair.
 
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