How safe is an underground propane tank?

[sifan]

I have contracted a standby generator with a 500 gallons tank to be buried in my backyard. The HOA has been stalling the project with the reason below:

"As my previous email stated until we can receive information about the safety and environmental issues regarding the installation of propane tank underground and a generator at the above mentioned residence we can not approve this project. I understand the county will issue permits for the project. Our may issue is what can happen if this tank leaks propane into the ground; what are the risks of the tank exploding and what steps are to be taken by the homeowner to ensure that the tank and generator is in good working condition each year. Are there inspections done to ensure the safety every year? No information was given to us on these major issues about the installation of the tank and generator. If that information is provided then we can make an inform decision as to whether we will be approving or disapproving the project. At this time we can not approve this project for the reasons stated above. As a board we must consider all homeowners interest and safety before approving any project."

For those of you that have an underground propane tank in your yard please share your thought. Thanks.

 

[KenO]

Install it and tell the HOA to pound sand.

 

[Chris142]

Ive never heard of one being under ground. All above ground here but im assuming that underground would be safer than above ground.
Sounds like your hoa either has no clue about propane or are just being a hard nose.

 

[Chris142]

It says here that an underground propane tank wont harm soil or aquifers. Im sure that Theres not enough oxygen underground to support combustion.

 

[Chris142]

http://www.usepropane.com/what-is-propane/questions-and-answers/

 

[Chris142]

Ive been reading up on this and it appears that an underground tank is a special tank and is much safer than having a 20 pounder rattling around just inches from the flames in your bbq.

 

[Kruse]

While all propane tanks around here are above ground, your HOA is really clueless about propane. First, propane evaporates into the air instead of contaminating soil or water. (Unless, it's about -45F, then it will remain a liquid)
Have your propane supplier give you some information about underground tanks that you can supply to your HOA board. They are just as safe or safer than an above ground tank and I would think your HOA wouldn't mind an underground tank because all the "ugliness" of your tank is hidden from view.

 

[Shannow]

Can only go by what has to happen in my world with some propane tanks...I think 500gal would be big enough to be classified as a dangerous goods depot...

Annual inspection, regular (annual to 5 year probably) safety valve setting/replacement, and every 5-10 years an internal inspection, maybe a hydro pressure test.

Underground becomes more of a pain, as you can't see the outside corrosion. Hydro an underground tank, and I don't know how you'd dry it.

Tanks would need sacrificial anodes, and a means of replacing it.

design would need to be such that in the event of an empty tank and high groundwater (you run out during a 40 day flood) the tank can't "bubble" up.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Are there inspections done to ensure the safety every year? No information was given to us on these major issues about the installation of the tank and generator.


Is the generator underground as well or is it above ground?

Is the generator located away from the tank's potential location or is it colocated?

If the generator is colocated then an underground leak could propogate up from the tank and a spark from the generator could potentially cause combustion. To maintain the same potential between the tank and generator, a #4 stranded wire from the tank to generator should connect the two.

The only time I have ever heard of a 500 gallon LP tank being underground is when it was placed in a waterproof underground vault with leak detection alarms.

+1 on what Shannow stated about corrosion for an underground tank.

 

[sifan]

The generator will be above ground and placed along the right side of my townhouse about 5 yards away from the heat pump. According to the county regulations the tank must be at least 7 yards from the property lines which means the tank will have to be in my backyard since I have a small yard. This will put some distance between the tank and the generator. My townhouse is an end unit with right side of the yard adjacent to sidewalk.

Check out this YouTube clip. I am not sure how big the tank in the clip is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-7sBxOsB9U

 

[Shannow]

Tank looks like it's about (say) 1M diameter, and 4 long...probably about 2000L working volume, so it's ballpark to what you are doing.

You'll want to protect that riser from a parking/trailer incident with some substantial bollards, and it would be a good ised to be able to check the continuity on the anode (dunno how from the vid).

Would have thought a mortar backfill more kosher.

Your contractor should be advising you on what your legal requirements for inspection are...

 

[djb]

Underground tanks are safer than above ground.

And propane is much preferred over fuel oil. Any leak evaporates, leaving no residue and almost no risk of explosion.

In some areas underground tanks are common, although of course you wouldn't know it by looking.

One aspect that reduces their popularity is that in some areas renting an above-ground propane tank is almost forced by the propane distributor. They argue that it's for safety, but it's really so that you are locked into that vendor. No other distributor is allowed to fill the tank.

Corrosion is less of an issue than you might expect. It's common for zoning laws to require above ground tanks to placed away from structures, which results in underground supply pipes. There are relatively simple rules to follow (the correct type of pipe, using pipe wrap, mechanical protection) for installation, and corrosion failures are rare.

 

[Rob_Roy]

Underground 1000 gallon LP tanks are common in my area. Your propane company should have the information the HOA is looking for...hopefully they are smart enough to comprehend it.

 

[flanso]

I buried a tank in Naples, Florida. To get the permit and pass inspection, the tank had to be a certain distance from the structure and from the property line. I don't remember the exact measurement but it seemed reasonable. The tank also had to be secured underground with cables and special purpose anchors that looked very much like the screw-in-the-ground metal anchors that are used to tether dog leashes. This anchoring requirement was to prevent the tank from surfacing in case of flooding. The buried feed line was ordinary flexible copper threaded through a semi-flexible yellow plastic sheath.

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: KenO
Install it and tell the HOA to pound sand.


I agree 10000%. They cannot not approve your project just because they incorrectly think it is unsafe. If you follow all the local permits and such, it is none of their business. I seriouslu doubt they have any authority over what you can put in the ground. Maybe an above ground tank in an obvious location, not something they cannot see and is completely up to code.

The burden of proof is on them. If they think it is too dangerous for your neighborhood, they have to prove it. Since it's not, they can't. Ignore them. Send them a certified letter telling them you want an expert's opinion of why you cannot have it. They won't come up with one.

It's like when I painted my house. I didn't ask the permission of the HOA, they threw a fit. Problem is they waited a full year after I did it to even notice. All of my neighbors wrote a letter that basically said they like the color and the HOA should shove it.

They also constantly harass the lady across the street from me, because her house doesn't quite fit into the HOA. That's because she is not and never was part of the HOA, they still harass her.

My point? The people who run your HOA, and mine, and every other HOA, are most likely unqualified idiots. Don't let them control your life. They may think they can, but they can't. In most cases, they have no authority, period. They pretend to, and they huff and puff, but they are all hot air. After they run out of nasty letters, that's it. It's kind of like when a mall security guard starts thinking he is a real cop.

 

[JetStar]

Underground tanks are common here. They appear to be coated with what appears to be heavy undercoating, and are backfilled with sand when they are installed. I have one in my yard.

 

[Number21]

You might want to show them a picture of what a 500 gallon above ground tank would look like in your "alternative location" of your front yard. Some people paint them pink and dress them up like pigs....

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Number21

The burden of proof is on them. If they think it is too dangerous for your neighborhood, they have to prove it. Since it's not, they can't. Ignore them. Send them a certified letter telling them you want an expert's opinion of why you cannot have it. They won't come up with one.


Yeah this! Read your bylaws and whatnot but I'd send the letter and build in a 30 day deadline (or whatever is in your rule book). Just say you're turning a shovel January 24 and they need to get back with objections if they have any.

Most HOAs are a bunch of bitty's who like sitting around quoting "Robert's rules of order".

 

[DoiInthanon]

Get together the info from the propane company or trade association. Provide that.

It always amuses me those that sound off about city government nazis or HOA idiots, but never get the gumption to get together with three friends and run for the elected positions that rule these organizations.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

We have a 1500 gallon underground propane tank, and in the 18+ years since it was installed (new when the house was built) we haven't had any issues with it. It runs the house, shop, generator and outdoor grill.

Underground has several advantages-not only is there no unsightly storage tank, but at sub-zero temperatures (like we're having this morning) above ground tanks tend to lose pressure; an underground tank is much more temperature stable.

In areas with a high water table it might be better to go with an above ground tank, but if the water table isn't an issue, and the local code allows it, I wouldn't hesitate to install an underground tank.

Unlike the legions of lawyers above, I won't pretend to know what you can and can't do with regard to your HOA. However you did purchase a home governed by an HOA, and you agreed to abide by and be bound by their rules. I can't imagine someone telling me what I can and can't do with my house and property, but that's a different discussion.