in shame; atf for subaru 4eat and frequency

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There is an internal pickup screen. If you crack the bolts loose you get another L or so of fluid to drain. There's about 19 bolts holding it on but you don't have to remove them to get it to drain.

Here's what you see looking up at the tranny with the pan off. You can see the large kidney-shaped screen in the center and the solenoids.

http://i.imgur.com/5heWjkO.gif
5heWjkO.gif

As long as you don't put strong magnets directly under the solenoids you'll be just fine.

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You do not have an internal filter, just the screen. The external filter should be just fine.

Martinq, you can get about 50% of the fluid out of the Subie with the "tilted drain". Getting only 1/3 out would be tough (40% is common for level draining) unless you have a Fumoto valve on the tranny pan... which does make my life easier. I was able to get just below 5qt out of a 9.8qt Outback. Thus you are looking at 4 D&F to get to 93.5%.. if you want to get to 97ish percent do 5. Yes, it is more fluid, but for me, it is less time and less work.

Really, I would just do 1-2 D&F every few 10Ks after the big "reboot" as I believe consistently "mediocre" is better than occasional excellent fluid.

Subaru was very kind with this tranny. The external filter is all you really need to serviced and there is little reason to drop the pan. I would not even worry about the internal screen unless you are really itching to drop the pan.

More magnets does NOT equal more protection. Adding more magnets will only create more fields and distribute metal into more locations and less accessible areas. If you want to use a more powerful magnet, ehh, ok but minimal difference at best as the external filter does more.
 
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Originally Posted By: martinq
There is an internal pickup screen. If you crack the bolts loose you get another L or so of fluid to drain. There's about 19 bolts holding it on but you don't have to remove them to get it to drain.

Here's what you see looking up at the tranny with the pan off. You can see the large kidney-shaped screen in the center and the solenoids.

http://i.imgur.com/5heWjkO.gif
5heWjkO.gif

As long as you don't put strong magnets directly under the solenoids you'll be just fine.

.


Just FYI... that "screen" is where the internal filters used to be in the previous versions of the transmission. Really the screen is a placeholder of sorts.
 
As the OE magnet get's saturated it becomes less effective at pulling material as the strongest part of the field is at the magnet surface. One benefit of using a Magnefine filter in the cooling loop is that it can be easily replaced or cleaned/inspected without pulling the pan off.

Here was my first attempt at adding magnets to the pan. These were put in place AFTER doing a full flush of both tranny and PS (3 jugs of MaxLife, 2L left over).

http://i.imgur.com/18X9OEv.gif
18X9OEv.gif

After noticing the shift problems, and reading the TCU code, I pulled the pan to reposition the magnets and was surprised how much 'dirt' was pulled from the 'clean' system. Doing 4 or 5 D&F would not be anywhere near this clean as I had drained about 7L before doing the flush, AND cleaned the pan spotless, AND the magnet.

And yet, here is what came out of that clean system after a few hours running:

http://i.imgur.com/s2ENfKA.gif
s2ENfKA.gif

I decided to put most the magnets on the intake shield instead of the pan for easier placement wrt the solenoids.

http://i.imgur.com/keLRnsh.gif
keLRnsh.gif

Next time, if there is one, I'll clean the magnets and re-evaluate their position. I've been very happy with the performance of MaxLife and with the power of these magnets. I put two of them in the PS reservoir and have cleaned them while doing fluid changes.
 
Originally Posted By: i812
No, it will not have both. Which makes it easier to drain and fill you trans fluid. Should look something like this:
15283d1261443974-2005-ob-oil-filter-imag0021.jpg



Why can't ALL car's have these.....
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Originally Posted By: michaelluscher
Why can't ALL car's have these.....
cry.gif

347.gif



I don't know... tis a shame.


Martinq: That many magnets only distributes whatever you are trying to catch all over the pan. It would have been better just to let the tranny filter do its job and D&F in regular intervals. The magnet is not the primary filter... it is a secondary mechanism at best and a safety catch at best. At that point with so many magnets, you are magnetizing the entire pan most likely. Heck, I would be worried about having a magnetized intake screen.

I would rather have small amounts of materials in the fluid (to be captured by the filter) and then whatever the filter does not catch, to be removed via the fluid changes. Heck, the use of the magnets might hold more [censored] in the tranny so that flushes are less effective unless you drop the pan. With this subie transmission, it is designed so you do not have to drop the pan to do the needed maintenance... and that is a good thing.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
That many magnets only distributes whatever you are trying to catch all over the pan.

Exactly. More surface, increased flux, higher capture rate, larger holding capacity. Similar to using a larger, finer filter.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
It would have been better just to let the tranny filter do its job and D&F in regular intervals. The magnet is not the primary filter... it is a secondary mechanism at best and a safety catch at best.

The bypass filter is always doing it's job, the magnet will catch particles that the screen and the bypass cannot. The bypass captures non-magnetics that the magnet does not. The magnet is an essential part of the filtering system. Like I mentioned previously, the most damaging contamination in the transmission is steel wear particles from the gears, bearings, etc. Nothing can pull these particles out of the fluid better than a magnet. Doing a complete flush is not enough without magnetic filtering.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
At that point with so many magnets, you are magnetizing the entire pan most likely. Heck, I would be worried about having a magnetized intake screen.

Nothing to worry about, fear is not the solution. The more the merrier. You will only have enough magnetic filtering once you can capture 100% of the particles generated in a single pass (ie, they do not make it back to the pump).

Once a particle is pulled to the magnet surface it will not release. Escape only begins to happen once the magnet is saturated by particles and their distance from the magnet surface increases. This is what you have in your tranny with a small magnetic surface that has never been cleaned.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I would rather have small amounts of materials in the fluid (to be captured by the filter) and then whatever the filter does not catch, to be removed via the fluid changes. Heck, the use of the magnets might hold more [censored] in the tranny so that flushes are less effective unless you drop the pan. With this subie transmission, it is designed so you do not have to drop the pan to do the needed maintenance... and that is a good thing.

I would rather have a better filtration system. Fluid changes are only required when the fluid is contaminated or the additives have worn out. You are wasting fluid, time and money.

There is no benefit to having wear particles in circulation. Increased contamination leads to a higher particle generation rate. The cycle continues and accelerates wear.

You should install a Magnefine (or similar) filter so you have something that can be changed/cleaned without pulling the pan. You're doing your tranny a disservice by not cleaning the magnet filter your tranny already has.
 
Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
That many magnets only distributes whatever you are trying to catch all over the pan.

Exactly. More surface, increased flux, higher capture rate, larger holding capacity. Similar to using a larger, finer filter.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
It would have been better just to let the tranny filter do its job and D&F in regular intervals. The magnet is not the primary filter... it is a secondary mechanism at best and a safety catch at best.

The bypass filter is always doing it's job, the magnet will catch particles that the screen and the bypass cannot. The bypass captures non-magnetics that the magnet does not. The magnet is an essential part of the filtering system. Like I mentioned previously, the most damaging contamination in the transmission is steel wear particles from the gears, bearings, etc. Nothing can pull these particles out of the fluid better than a magnet. Doing a complete flush is not enough without magnetic filtering.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
At that point with so many magnets, you are magnetizing the entire pan most likely. Heck, I would be worried about having a magnetized intake screen.

Nothing to worry about, fear is not the solution. The more the merrier. You will only have enough magnetic filtering once you can capture 100% of the particles generated in a single pass (ie, they do not make it back to the pump).

Once a particle is pulled to the magnet surface it will not release. Escape only begins to happen once the magnet is saturated by particles and their distance from the magnet surface increases. This is what you have in your tranny with a small magnetic surface that has never been cleaned.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I would rather have small amounts of materials in the fluid (to be captured by the filter) and then whatever the filter does not catch, to be removed via the fluid changes. Heck, the use of the magnets might hold more [censored] in the tranny so that flushes are less effective unless you drop the pan. With this subie transmission, it is designed so you do not have to drop the pan to do the needed maintenance... and that is a good thing.

I would rather have a better filtration system. Fluid changes are only required when the fluid is contaminated or the additives have worn out. You are wasting fluid, time and money.

There is no benefit to having wear particles in circulation. Increased contamination leads to a higher particle generation rate. The cycle continues and accelerates wear.

You should install a Magnefine (or similar) filter so you have something that can be changed/cleaned without pulling the pan. You're doing your tranny a disservice by not cleaning the magnet filter your tranny already has.


You are assuming that the wearing "particulates" suspended in the transmission fluid are magnetic. Even with your "magnet mayhem gauntlet of magnetized doom" fails with non-metallic particles. The external tranny filter catches the magnetic and non-magnetic particles that are size enough to cause issues. The screen helps extend the filter life by preventing the large items and the magnet keeps the large magnetic particles down as away from being clogging the screen. The very fine magnetic particles are likely wear from the clutchpacks themselves... which are not that much of a concern if you change the fluid regularly (simple D&F is all one "needs" and the occasional pan pull). The dangerous issues are when the fluids gets too hot and then the heat combined with failing fluid becomes an issue.

Transmissions are wearing parts... hopefully long life wearing parts but they wear-down by design. That is how they work. You can't truly keep all of the worn-off clutch "dust" out and the filter it is creating more particulates with every shift.

There is no fear... but there is no logical reason or benefit to add a bunch of low-priced magnets all over the transmission pan. And yes, particles are released from the magnet. Small particles in a liquid have scale issues (is more thick comparatively on a smaller scale). The pressurized flow can dislodge small particles from weak fields.

There is no disservice here. Look for your "method" in the service manual. It is not there. Recent, properly changed fluid (D&F is fine) and service to the tranny filter is all that is needed. Heck, even 200K and no change might not enough to kill the 4EAT. Still, change the fluid to keep it fresh enough and let the tranny filter do its job.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
You are assuming that the wearing "particulates" suspended in the transmission fluid are magnetic. Even with your "magnet mayhem gauntlet of magnetized doom" fails with non-metallic particles.

Hahaa ... good one.
grin.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Transmissions are wearing parts... hopefully long life wearing parts but they wear-down by design. That is how they work. You can't truly keep all of the worn-off clutch "dust" out and the filter it is creating more particulates with every shift.

I know you enjoy maintaining a higher level of contamination in your transmission (and steering?) fluid but I was trying to assist the OP with a cost effective way of extending the service of his vehicle.

I do not believe that dumping good fluid is an effective strategy.

I do know that magnets will significantly cut down on the iron and chromium counts when testing fluid condition.

I do know that the vast majority of particles, in a typical hydraulic loop, that cause wear are magnetic.

A clean and cool system is a long-life system. Simple as that really.
 
You could do a Magnifine filter. There is definitely nothing going to cause the transmission to explode with that.If you want o go that route, go for it (infinitely better than a giant magnetized tranny pan). Keep in mind that your Subbie has made it 220K with one fluid change and no magnetic filter other than the ring in the pan. It will not make the tranny "like new" and extend the life of the tranny but the tranny could be anywhere from 50% to 10% of its life remaining. I know a few 400k+ subbies on their original tranny but I have been noticing a lot of "needs new transmission" subbies at between 250k-375K

The most important thing is new fluid. D&F do it gradually so if there is a seal leak that the current old fluid is stopping, D&F will expose it gradually giving you, perhaps, some time to figure out a plan. Those flushes will expose a seal leak immediately and reverse power flushes can damage seals IMO. Sure, D&F use more fluid but fluid is inexpensive easy to do and often cheaper than flushing (especially if you take it to a shop... which often uses a lot more fluid and might use the wrong type of fluid).

My subbie liked regular "cheap and on sale" Dex/Merc and Maxlife. It hated Castrol HM. I would not bother with high mileage fluids unless it is not like regular and then you can give it a try. For your WRX, might as well use the better stuff (Maxlife) from the bat.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
You could do a Magnifine filter. There is definitely nothing going to cause the transmission to explode with that.

I thought someone said that Magnefine 'might' cause a tranny to explode? Kinda makes sense though, filters and magnets have that tendency.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
If you want o go that route, go for it (infinitely better than a giant magnetized tranny pan).

And how does someone come up with this magical idea?

You know, if you're really scared of magnets you could always take the car to a qualified mechanic and have them remove it. Then you could go ahead with your regular fluid exchange without that dangerous magnet messing things up.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
D&F do it gradually so if there is a seal leak that the current old fluid is stopping, D&F will expose it gradually giving you, perhaps, some time to figure out a plan.

Old fluid won't prevent a leak, but new fluid might help swell the seals (stop leak esters) to prevent/reduce it.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Those flushes will expose a seal leak immediately and reverse power flushes can damage seals IMO.

Amd what are 'those flushes'? And how do they have such immediate effect on fluid leaks?

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Sure, D&F use more fluid but fluid is inexpensive easy to do and often cheaper than flushing (especially if you take it to a shop... which often uses a lot more fluid and might use the wrong type of fluid).

Like I said before, multiple drain-N-fill is the more expensive route. You simply CANNOT get a transmission clean, even if you use triple the fluid. The pan is still dirty and the magnet is still saturated with material.

Another BIG benefit of magnets in the pan (or reservoir) is that they work on the surrounding fluid 24hrs a day, not just when you're driving. By adding magnets, and distributing the field you increase their filtering potential. This will (not may) greatly extent the use of the fluid all the while reducing wear on the tranny.

The magnets work so you don't have to!
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Uggg, sigh.

External Filters work so you do not have to...

Ouch, really? You think a "standard flush" cleans an transmission. You are simply wrong on that front. You can say it is more economical with the fluids (but not infinitely more economical... only a few bucks). The problem with your "method" is simple...this little black cylinder called a "filter":

15283d1261443974-2005-ob-oil-filter-imag0021.jpg


If you are doing a regular flush without an external secondary pump pumping fluid, then you are not "flushing" any more "contaminants" out than a traditional D&F. You are only using the car's pump to move fluid around... and that fluid is not cleaning any more out than a D&F. Why? Because the transmission is still sending fluid though the tranny filter so the tranny filter is catching anything that is potentially damaging. You can't access contaminants with a standard flush without addressing the filter. That is because your flush open point is AFTER the filter. With D&F (which is less efficient with the amount of fluid), you are removing fluid before it is processed by the filter. So anything floating around in the pan is accessible.

Ok, magnets... what is the point of spreading different magnetic field all around the pan? Do you want to have to drop the pan EVERY time you service the transmission especially when Subaru has given us that perfect external spin-on filter and a drain plug? Subaru has made is simple and easy and you want to turn it into a maintenance monster. I would rather have the filter have any contaminants concentrated into an easy spin-on/off location that having to deal with dropping the pan ever 15-30K miles. The only thing you are doing with those magnets is distributing the various magnetic particles around the transmission pan and preventing them from getting to the filter. Next, think about the additional "contaminants" that get into the transmission via opening up the pan a lot... think of all the potential sand, dust, and the other non-metallic particles. Sure,t he D&F open the closed system but it is a lot less "sticky" space to infiltrate. Sure, you do have to drop the pan every so often but I would avoid opening it up every time the tranny needs some new fluid.

If it is a power/chemical flush or a reverse flow flush... the you can damage the seals. Simple pressure can damage seal especially if they exceed what they are able to seal or are pushed in a direction not for what they are designed to do.

Old fluid being more viscous can disguise a seal leak... that is why if you do a D&F you might give you some limited time to get a backup plan if there is a serious transmission issue lurking behind the bad fluid.

I reiterate...

Changing the fluid and the filter is all a transmission needs for normal-intermitten operation (not hard trackdays or heavy towing etc)
 
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Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
External Filters work so you do not have to...

Not when the engine isn't running they don't. Also, you seem to promote doing MORE work, not less (and spending more money for a less effective system).
 
Originally Posted By: 91camarosRS
Random info if anyone is interested. My trans is a little different than the standard 4eat

Neat. So to sum it up the 2002+ turbo AT has:

- tighter 1st & 2nd ratio
- different (VTD) rear-torque coupling
- higher stall on the torque-converter
- an extra clutch-plate in the high/low clutches and low/rev/2-4 brakes
 
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Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
The problem with your "method" is simple...this little black cylinder called a "filter"

RRRRRR Wrong! The first thing I do when doing the Subaru flush is removal of old fluid in the tranny. This involves pulling the pan, pulling the filter and cracking loose the screen. The flush is done through the return-cooling line with a fresh tranny filter installed (or a temporary oil-filter if I'm keeping the old one).

If I was in the position of 91camarosRS, this is exactly what I would do.

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Ok, magnets... what is the point of spreading different magnetic field all around the pan?

I don't see much point in doing that, and that's exactly what I'm NOT doing. I'm ADDING to the field.

Again, if you don't want to (or can't) pull the pan to do a proper clean & flush then at the very least you can install a Magnefine in the cooling loop. It's significantly more expensive than what I would do but it's fairly easy and better than nothing.

Better filtration is better.
 
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Good info 91. Poke around some of the Subaru forums and you should be able to find the owners/service manual available for download. Actually I think you can get the 01 years directly from Subaru. I used an Outback specific forum and have most of the manuals download on this CPU.

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
External Filters work so you do not have to...

Not when the engine isn't running they don't. Also, you seem to promote doing MORE work, not less (and spending more money for a less effective system).


When your engine isn't running, why do you need to "filter" an inactive transmission. That is just a crock of...

Originally Posted By: martinq
RRRRRR Wrong! The first thing I do when doing the Subaru flush is removal of old fluid in the tranny. This involves pulling the pan, pulling the filter and cracking loose the screen. The flush is done through the return-cooling line with a fresh tranny filter installed (or a temporary oil-filter if I'm keeping the old one).

If I was in the position of 91camarosRS, this is exactly what I would do.
.....

I don't see much point in doing that, and that's exactly what I'm NOT doing. I'm ADDING to the field.

Again, if you don't want to (or can't) pull the pan to do a proper clean & flush then at the very least you can install a Magnefine in the cooling loop. It's significantly more expensive than what I would do but it's fairly easy and better than nothing.

Better filtration is better.


And if I was in 91's position, your advice would be the LAST option... wait, I WAS in 91's shoes... with a HM Subaru with an unknown service history.

The OEM Subaru Filter will prevent harmful material from making it into the transmission proper. Adding a bunch of magnets only attracts clutch residue to any charged surface... ie all over the pan... this you have to drop the pan every time you service the tranny... rather than letting the transmission filter catch that material and then remove it. Sorry, dropping the pan is definitely "more work".

Filters anything that makes it up from the pan before it goes between the plates. When doing a flush, (really a "Fluid Exchange" as you are not really describing a flush), ask yourself where the fluid which you are draining is coming from and where the fluid you are adding is going... think about that... the is the flaw in the "flush". Were is the fluid going, where has it been, and what is it passing through? Sould be simple follow the "fluid" and connect the dots. All you are doing is exchanging the fluid and cleaning the pan... and adding a lot of very large particles (magnets) to the pan.

Subaru gave us a nice external filter and a drain plug, that is all one needs. The only reason to pull a pan is either because the pan lacks a drain-plug or to access the filter. Any other reasons is crack-put mechanic-sim.


Sorry, nothing is simpler that D&F (especially with a Fumoto) and changing the filter.

Better filtration is better... but what you are describing is not better filtration...more like rubbing roots together to make it rain.
 
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