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#3220743 - 12/18/13 02:19 PM Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement
y5e06 Offline


Registered: 12/17/13
Posts: 5
Loc: Central Texas
All,

I have been researching a suitable replacement fluid for use in my Mustang w/ the MT82. Many are aware of the common complain of the shift qualities of these.
I switched to Redline MTL based upon the rave reviews on the car specific forums. However in the previous few weeks its been in the 30s and even 20s here. the shift quality is quite appalling even with the Redline.

So, I turned to this board for more in depth research.

Basically, according to ford the correct fluid is XT-11-QDC
it is listed here
Ford Trans Fluid Chart
within that chart it indicates Ford specification WSD-M2C200-D2
WSD-M2C200-D2

that spec says the viscosities are to be:
Viscosity:
cSt @ 40°C 76.0
cSt @ 100°C 15.4
mPa.s @ -40°C 17,400

Those cSt numbers are quiet high when comparing the available viscosity numbers of the QDC or even QS available on this forum.

A number of times when I've searched for related topics within this forum I see this information from, I believe, MolaKule:
Quote:
What I recommend you do when looking for a replacement fluid is to determine the viscosity of the fluid at 100C either from the manufacturer's Product Data Sheet or from a New oil Analysis or VOA.

After knowing the viscosity at 100C (212F), one can then attempt to match up the fluid to one or more of those below:

A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,
2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,
3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.
4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC


B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)
1. Royal Purple's Synchromax
2. Ravenol MTF-2
3. Honda MTF
4. VW part number G052512A2
5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid
6. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-1, 2

C. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Castrol Syntrans V FE 75W-80 8.0cSt

D. The next higher viscosity MTL would be BG Synchroshift II 8.2 cSt

E. The next higher viscosity is Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0cSt

F. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.3 cSt

G. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt range are:
1. Redline MTL 70W80.
2. Amsoil MTL
3. GM Synchromeshs’
4. Volvo MTF 645
5. Ford Motor Craft XT-M5-QS

H. The next higher viscosity MTL would be:
1. Redline MT-85 – 12.0 cSt

I. The next higher viscosity MTLs would be:
1. Amsoil MTG 14.5 cSt
2. Redline MT-90 15.6 cSt
3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90


I *think* i saw an analaysis along the way that confirmed MolaKule's info with QDC cSt in the 6-7 range.
So, given those few data sources, why do you think there appears to be such a large discrepancy in the ford spec, which recommends that fluid and the viscosity suggested on this forum?

I'm looking at a Ford Spec indicating cSt @ 100°C 15.4 vs the forum listed 6-7cSt of the QDC and 11s for the QS (original fill for the '11-'12 cars)

Basically, I see that the Redline is thicker than the QDC, and possibly my trans is finicky enough in the cold to be sensitive to that. However, If I switch to Royal Purple Synchromax I'm moving to a synchromesh fluid that is much closer in viscosity to QDC than the Redline.
Redline is great stuff, it just doesn't seem to be working well in the cold in my car.... and its driving me crazy.

The Royal Purple appears to have the matching viscosity and does have a friction modifier package for the synchro transmissions. So it would seem it may be a good choice. Am I wrong in my conclusion? Even if it was intended for ATF type fill replacements, if it has the correct viscosity and FM's for manual transmissions then it may be a good choice.

I've had a number of GM T56 cars in the past and the RP Synchromesh has worked excellent in those (I never sent any out for analysis, my change intervals are quite frequent) so I'm willing to try it here on the MT82.


Edited by y5e06 (12/18/13 02:30 PM)

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#3220765 - 12/18/13 02:43 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
aquariuscsm Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 9914
Loc: South Texas,USA
Amsoil makes a synchromesh type fluid that you might want to take a look at,Amsoil MTF.
_________________________
1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Syntec 10W40/Fram Ultra
Amsoil MTG(tranny)
Amsoil 80W90 GL5(rear diff)
Mobil 1 ATF
Redline Water Wetter

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#3220770 - 12/18/13 02:49 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
y5e06 Offline


Registered: 12/17/13
Posts: 5
Loc: Central Texas
yes, I believe that is the Amsoil MTL (MTF) I have bolded in the quoted area. However, the A-MTL numbers are similar to Redline's. I highlighted those that are either of interest or recommended by other mustang folks. Instead of just buying a recommended fluid I wanted to dig in a bit and start to evaluate the numbers.

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#3220972 - 12/18/13 07:23 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6899
Loc: Florida
Every DCTF type lube I have seen has a viscosity of 7-8 CST at 100C, so I am confused why Ford would want to make such a dramatic change the the viscosity of oil in their manual transmissions.

The synchromesh fluids listed don't work in a DCT transmission, so I wonder how they would work in a transmissions that isn't a DCT, but asks for DCTF.

I use Ravenol DCTF in my car because I got it for $15 per liter. How many liters does your car need? It might not be an expensive thing to try.
_________________________
2010 Lancer Ralliart Sportback

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#3221115 - 12/18/13 09:54 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14643
Loc: Midwest
The DCT Part Number XT-11-QDC references Ford Spec WSD-M2C200-D2, not Ford Spec WSD-M2C200-C, which your link references.
_________________________
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#3221152 - 12/18/13 10:39 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7071
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: y5e06
I've had a number of GM T56 cars in the past and the RP Synchromesh has worked excellent in those (I never sent any out for analysis, my change intervals are quite frequent) so I'm willing to try it here on the MT82.


That's odd, since the RP SynchroMax was the flat out WORST performing fluid (shifting/engaging wise) I've EVER had in my 1999 built, cellulose blocker ringed, T56, to the point that I dumped it out after 1 DAY (and ~$70.00 bucks! mad ).
It ground/crunched in EVERY gear, and I thought I was going to KILL my gearbox if it was left in there! eek

What year, and blocker ring material were your T56es??

Were they early Borg Warner units, or latter Tremec deals?

The RL MTL does give a very slight, quarter second duration, notchy grind in the 1-2 shift when starting out cold in sub 30*F ambient temps, but it is NOT bad, and NOWHERE NEAR as horrid as the RP fluid was IN THE WARM weather, with a warm gearbox. shrug
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

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#3221193 - 12/19/13 12:20 AM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: MolaKule]
y5e06 Offline


Registered: 12/17/13
Posts: 5
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The DCT Part Number XT-11-QDC references Ford Spec WSD-M2C200-D2, not Ford Spec WSD-M2C200-C, which your link references.


ah, yes. you're quite right! sheshh, my mistake.
I've now been searching for the -D2 spec but only found one site that wants $10 for it...


My T56's were out of LT1s. So I think they are actually the BW versions. The one that really, really helped was a 150K mile original LT1 unit that was unrebuilt. in fact the bad 1st gear synchro is why i tried the RP and, I swear, it was like a magic fix.
However, I have rebuilt a few of these, including the one in my road race car, and used the RP in those. I just ordered the synchro rebuild kits that were available and I don't recall paying attention to the material on those.
Quote:
That's odd, since the RP SynchroMax was the flat out WORST performing fluid (shifting/engaging wise) I've EVER had in my 1999 built, cellulose blocker ringed, T56, ...
What year, and blocker ring material were your T56es??

Were they early Borg Warner units, or latter Tremec deals?

I still run the RP SMax in my road race car's T56 and it works great. I change it after about 6-7 track weekends.

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#3221733 - 12/19/13 02:28 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14643
Loc: Midwest
Most of the DCT fluids have a viscosity that puts them in the range of ATF viscosities.

And the important thing here is tha tthe additive package in a DCT fluid is very specific in terms of friction modification and loaded with AW additives.

Check the Castrol or Fuch's websites for a DCT fluid that meets the Ford Spec WSD-M2C200-D2.

The chart you referenced above is specific to Manual Transmissions only and does not imply anyone of the fluids mentioned are compatible for DCT's.
_________________________
My bank has a service where they text me my balance every afternoon. I just don’t think they should add “LOL” to the end. smile

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#3222019 - 12/19/13 07:20 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7071
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: y5e06
I still run the RP SMax in my road race car's T56 and it works great. I change it after about 6-7 track weekends.


NASA CMC/CMC 2, or something else??
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

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#3222139 - 12/19/13 10:00 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: dailydriver]
y5e06 Offline


Registered: 12/17/13
Posts: 5
Loc: Central Texas
I will do some browsing on more DCT's, specifically those that meet Ford's spec.
Other than viscosities, pour temps, and whatnot, does the ford spec (or other mfg specs for that matter) define the friction modifier additive packages specifically?


NASA Texas CMC - Firebird



Race 4 at ECR


Edited by y5e06 (12/19/13 10:11 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#3222167 - 12/19/13 10:43 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14643
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
Other than viscosities, pour temps, and whatnot, does the ford spec (or other mfg specs for that matter) define the friction modifier additive packages specifically?


No, these are performance specs.

The big four additive makers provide DCT additive packages.
_________________________
My bank has a service where they text me my balance every afternoon. I just don’t think they should add “LOL” to the end. smile

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#3222728 - 12/20/13 01:57 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14643
Loc: Midwest
Racing videos aren't needed in this thread!
_________________________
My bank has a service where they text me my balance every afternoon. I just don’t think they should add “LOL” to the end. smile

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#3226435 - 12/24/13 12:22 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
y5e06 Offline


Registered: 12/17/13
Posts: 5
Loc: Central Texas
Just a brief follow up.

I ran redline MTL for 1,500 miles and while it was an notable improvement to whatever was in my car originally it still had poor cold temperature characteristics and even when warm the shifting was occasionally balky and generally disappointing. Looking at the chart the MTL is actually heavier than what it came with, so maybe that is no surprise.

based on the information in the first post
Quote:

A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,
2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,
3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.
4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC

B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)
1. Royal Purple's Synchromax


I went ahead and filled with the Royal Purple Synchromax. I had some on hand and its been great in my T56 transmissions.
the CSt is 7.5 which is actually slightly heavier than than the QDC of 6 cSt! So, I feel good about this.
Knowing the QDC is the '12+ factory fill it would seem the RP isn't too thin and it is certainly lighter than the Redline MTL or Amsoil MTF. Although it doesn't have a GL4 rating or similar on the packaging or literature, it is directly targeted at synchromesh manual transmissions so I believe I can safely assume it is OK for the yellow metals in my trans.

The results? Unbelievable. I'm someone, like many of you, that bases my results on empirical data and real world results. In this case I don't have any physical measurements to report but only qualitative feedback. I can tell you I notice a huge improvement in the cold weather behavior of this trans. Huge. The last few mornings its been in the mid 30's (F) and the driveability is significantly better, not just marginally. This is great even though this type of weather is limited on a regular basis in my neck of the woods.
So at this time I plan to keep w/ the RP. Perhaps when the summer months come I would be willing to try the BG SynchroShift II, especially if I track the car, but at this time the ill behaviors are fantastically improved. So much so I can't believe people recommend redline MTL or other ~10 cSt fluids for these cars. Perhaps the RP FM package has a lot to do with it. I'm amazed at such improvements with just a fluid flush. Warm temp characteristics are fantastic too, by the way.

I'm keen on sending out a UOA on this fill even if done at an early interval.








Edited by y5e06 (12/24/13 12:24 PM)

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#3226584 - 12/24/13 03:44 PM Re: Ford QDC (DTC) Viscosity vs Suitable replacement [Re: y5e06]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7071
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
I'm glad to hear the Purple stuff worked out GREAT for you! thumbsup

I only wish I could have used it (i.e.; kept it in my T56, instead of dumping it in one day), since it seems like some great fluid.
But it gave my gearbox/blocker rings/synchros the s**ts right from the first shift, probably due to their 'Synerlec' additive which works so well in other apps. frown
_________________________
2000 Z28 1SC 6 speed 175K miles
Red Line 0W-40/Sustina 0W-20 (20/80 mix)
Fram Ultra filter
Synpower 75W-140/4oz. XL-3
Red Line D4 in the T56

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