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#3212121 - 12/10/13 09:34 AM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: Ramblejam]
bullwinkle Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4175
Loc: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: KenO
Are you sure these trucks can't be built with an auxiliary engine powering the shredders? It really seems like that would fix this problem entirely.


Vecoplan VST-42e, if you have access to three-phase industrial power.
Or could a tow generator be capable of powering it (with cheaper off road fuel & NO DPF!)?
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#3212220 - 12/10/13 11:07 AM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: shredguy]
ac_tc Offline


Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 541
Loc: sweden
"This was all pre-dpf though, so maybe that has something to do with it."

Well not so much dpf but the heavy egr that non def engines used. Go with half the miles or hours thats used on a pre egr engine. Def engines have it much easier and should be considered as " better " despite their auxilary tank/ expense, in agro machines they say that one $ spent on def fluid saves 3 $ of fuel compared to the same engine that uses egr to do the same thing. Heavy egr spoils fuel economy/ engine efficensy.
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#3212226 - 12/10/13 11:13 AM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: Ramblejam]
shredguy Offline


Registered: 12/05/13
Posts: 15
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: KenO
Are you sure these trucks can't be built with an auxiliary engine powering the shredders? It really seems like that would fix this problem entirely.


Vecoplan VST-42e, if you have access to three-phase industrial power.


Not really applicable, since 99% of the time there is no access to three-phase power. I guess towing a generator would be an option, but doesn't seem too feasible and presents it's own set of problems.

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#3212394 - 12/10/13 02:03 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: shredguy]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Originally Posted By: shredguy
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: KenO
Are you sure these trucks can't be built with an auxiliary engine powering the shredders? It really seems like that would fix this problem entirely.


Vecoplan VST-42e, if you have access to three-phase industrial power.


Not really applicable, since 99% of the time there is no access to three-phase power. I guess towing a generator would be an option, but doesn't seem too feasible and presents it's own set of problems.



No, who said anything about electrical power. I'm talking about a dedicated engine built into the shredder unit. I can't fathom how thats not possible, or why it hasn't been done. I'd strongly suggest speaking with your suppliers about it, because it really seems like it would save everybody time and money.


I mean, if it came to it, a dedicated genset COULD be worthwhile as well. Research the fuel consumption on them and see if the finances make sense on that end, but somehow I doubt that. An integrated, self contained shredder unit just like they've done for decades with refrigeration units makes the most sense.


Edited by KenO (12/10/13 02:04 PM)
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#3212615 - 12/10/13 05:24 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: shredguy]
daman Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 10490
Loc: Bad Axe, MI
I would definitely do oil analysts on all these units and adjust the interval accordingly.

and stick with any of the big three oil's,what type of filtration you using? standard filter,by-pass?
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#3212844 - 12/10/13 08:49 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: Garak]
yucca Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 514
Loc: NM
Originally Posted By: Garak
At what RPM do you run your PTO operations? At least in the agricultural sector, it's significantly higher than idle. I think with the Case equipment I last used, it was around 1900 rpm or so, but my memory could be in error.


This is my question as well. At what RPM is the PTO set? What RPM load does it take to properly run your shredders?
I have a C-7 that requires the PTO to be set at 1000 rpm's for the pumps and compressor to properly operate.

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#3219123 - 12/17/13 12:27 AM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: shredguy]
Kuato Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 3241
Loc: Northeastern MT
Originally Posted By: shredguy
After reading everything, I think we are going to focus more on the cooling aspects.

We have been getting oil changes every 3 months, which works out to about 400-500 hours...which is about right. We are going to do analysis on the oil starting with the next oil changes to see if we need to adjust the schedule.

However, we were doing the cooling, tranny, and DPF PMs on mostly a miles basis. We are going to switch that to hourly based, which will roughly mean double the servicing.

Any other ideas you think we should try?



Checking the math here....400 hours, if traveled at 60 mph, equals 24000 miles. Granted, idling is lower rpm and wear perhaps is less. But any way you look at it, 24000 miles equivalent is a very long OCI. When you get your UOA on the oil at that range, I am pretty sure it will be depleted.


Edited by Kuato (12/17/13 12:30 AM)
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#3219820 - 12/17/13 05:31 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: Kuato]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1108
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Can't speak to his particular operation, but 400 hrs, 24,000 miles for a modern commercial heavy diesel is not that long. Cummins recommends over 25,000, and Detroit is the winner in longevity by recommending 50,000 mile OCI's on their newer stuff. It has been rare for me, since the mid 90's to change a heavy diesel less than 25,000 miles, unless monitoring a problem, even using conventional oil and no bypass filtration.
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#3220065 - 12/17/13 10:21 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: TiredTrucker]
Kuato Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 3241
Loc: Northeastern MT
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Can't speak to his particular operation, but 400 hrs, 24,000 miles for a modern commercial heavy diesel is not that long. Cummins recommends over 25,000, and Detroit is the winner in longevity by recommending 50,000 mile OCI's on their newer stuff. It has been rare for me, since the mid 90's to change a heavy diesel less than 25,000 miles, unless monitoring a problem, even using conventional oil and no bypass filtration.


I stand corrected; thanks for the education on diesel oil longevity!
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88 Dodge D150, 318 2wd MT 176k
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#3220111 - 12/17/13 11:04 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: shredguy]
Ken2 Offline


Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 6261
Loc: Washington St.
The capacity of the sump matters. We don't know the capacity of the sump in his medium duty trucks.
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#3220829 - 12/18/13 03:47 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: shredguy]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1601
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Most diesel-engine wear is caused by abrasive soot particles at high loads combined with low RPM. High loads combined with low RPM decrease the minimum oil-film thickness (MOFT), which causes the abrasive soot particles to grind onto sliding metal parts and wear them away.

Advice:

(1) Don't run the shredder when the truck is idling. If you need to do so, install some type of idle-up mechanism so that when the shredder is turned on, the engine automatically runs at higher RPM. That's because the minimum oil-film thickness is inversely proportional to load and directly proportional to RPM. You want to keep the oil film thick, which means you need higher RPM when there is load.

(2) Don't run anything thinner than 15W-40 on these engines, as the oil-film thickness is also proportional to viscosity. Don't run any certification other than API CJ-4, which has excellent soot control. I recommend Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40.

(3) Soot builds up over oil-change interval. If there is a lot of idling, you should change your oil frequently as soot will also build up during idle. Abrasive soot particles are what damages diesel engines; so, change your oil frequently. If you are idling 10 hours a day, this is equivalent of 500 miles or more of driving. This means you need to change the oil every month or so. Again, don't use anything other than API CJ-4 (excellent soot control) and 15W-40 (thickest oil film among diesel-engine oil viscosities). Once more, my recommendation is Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40 with an oil-change interval of no longer than about 30 days. You can also use any other major-brand API CJ-4 15W-40 with approximately 30-day oil-change intervals.
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#3220954 - 12/18/13 07:03 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: shredguy]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6953
Loc: Florida
If a heavier oil is an advantage, Tractor Supply has Mystik 15w50 CJ4 syn blend.
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#3221078 - 12/18/13 09:14 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: Gokhan]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9294
Loc: PA
Always a good thread when Gokhan posts. thumbsup

Gokhan, on the matter of higher oil film thickness at higher RPM: is that mainly because the oil pressure is higher, or is there another effect? I'm wondering if an electric oil pump could help by raising oil pressure with load.
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#3221081 - 12/18/13 09:17 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: Gokhan]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
(1) Don't run the shredder when the truck is idling. If you need to do so, install some type of idle-up mechanism so that when the shredder is turned on, the engine automatically runs at higher RPM.

I kinda hinted at that earlier on but didn't get an answer. PTO stuff is really not supposed to be run at idle, and I'm hoping this isn't the case here.
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2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
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#3221144 - 12/18/13 10:26 PM Re: Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles [Re: shredguy]
hattaresguy Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 5249
Loc: CT
Do you have the same driver in each truck or do they rotate?

Fleet vehicles with rotating drivers tend to get ignored. Stick one driver in each truck, and make it their responsibility to promptly report problems. I doubt you have a cooling problem, but if you do, the drivers should notice the temp gauges going up and the warning lights!

Same with fluid checks, every morning they should have to check the fluid levels.

Lastly this is a perfect situation for UOA, start taking samples and doing what the lab recommends.

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