Noisy Valvetrain with Castrol Edge 0W-40 API SM

[alcyon]

Hi Guys, I have been a lurker at BITOG for about 6 months, and I really do enjoy reading this forum. First off, I am a 37 year old gen X er from a tropical country called Malaysia, and the ambient temps here are really high especially in the afternoon. In the early morning ,if it rains, temps will be circa 22 C, and if it sunny in the afternoon it probably will be up to 40 C. Now a little history about my car. Its an econobox from the 80's.
Its a Malaysian made car called the Proton Saga, which is a copy of a mid 80s FWD Mitsubishi lancer fiore. It even comes with a MITSUBISHI 4G13 or 4G15 OHC engine. Mine is the 4G13. The car has been fed dino oil since it left the factory in 1991. I bought the car used in mid 97, and even then the engine wasn't in the best of condition,. I just followed the recommendation of the manufacturer to use 20W-50 oil for most of its life. By 1999, the engine was already noticeably burning oil whenever I rev up. A few years later in 2001, even burns oil while idling, and the valvetrain makes rather horrible noises. Even the spark plugs get oil fouled back then.

In mid 2004 I decided to give this car a new lease of life, and sent it off packing for a month for a complete engine overhaul. The camshaft, pistons, piston rings, valves ,bearings oil pump, water pump, the whole works was replaced with new components. The engine block was rebored since it had ovalized.

I got back the engine a month later, and it was fed with 20W-50 dino for the first 1000km break in. Then it was on duckhams QS fully synthethic twice. Castrol magnatec 10W-40 twice. I wasn't happy with the magantec semi syn cause it seemed to evaporaten a quart in 3000kms .Since the overhaul and the use of synthethic oil, the car's exhaust cleanliness, engine performance, sound are all top notch, so I continued with synthetic. After the disappointing magnatec,tesco were having a sale on shell helix ultra 5W-40, so I bought six 4L bottles and used them for the next 6 oil changes. I was really happy with the helix ultra. After a few more helix 5W-40, I tried BHP syngard 5W-40, wasn't very happy with it, the Tesco did a sale on Mobil 1 5W-50. The M1 was really good and made my engine quiet , even though it did burn half a quart after a 1000km long distance driving. As the M1 reached 9000km, my engine didn't seem as quiet anymore, and the oil had darkened considerably, so I figured it was time to change the oil. Tesco had Castrol EDGE 0W-40 with titanium on sale so I picked that up. After changing the oil, the engine was quiet once again. However after 2 weeks of driving and about 750km, the valvetrain is making some noises. What worries me the most is its not making noise upon cold morning startup, but during optimum working temperature. I know 0W-40 isn't supposed to be too thin as viscosity at 100C is the same as 5W-40, but I am really perplexed as to why why valves are making those noises. This is my first time using 0W -40 oil and it doesn't seem to be reassuring. My boss has a 2000 Mercedes C230 Kompressor, and he said when he used M1 0W-40 his engine made a horrible sound, and he quickly switched back to M1 5W-40 and it was quiet again. So am I worrying too much, or should I trust this EDGE 0W-40. I am worried I may be damaging my engine if I don't change the oil to a 5W-40 or 5W-50. Thanks to you guys on the forum, I have got in touch with blackstone and requested a UOA kit, they were gracious to send me one even though I am in Malaysia. I am planning to have a UOA done on this Castrol to see if indeed I have excessive wear.

I know my car is no firebreather but I do want to take care of it for life.

 

[Olas]

JMO, but I think a 0wXX is too thin for your climate - I'd use a good quality 5/10wXX(probably 30 or 40) and see if that makes a difference.

Are your followers solid shimmed? or Hydraulic? do you KNOW your valve clearance is correct? does that engine have variable valve timing? any metallic particles in the oil when you change it?

 

[alcyon]

Thanks OLAS, I have never done anything to my valvetrain since it was overhauled since, well, there weren't any unusual sounds from them, until I changed to this 0W-40 2 weeks ago. The followers are not hydraulic but mechanical. I have a engine pic cutaway which I will post soon. Again the valve clearance has never been adjusted thus far because there were no unusual sounds before. When I drained the M1 5W-50 I did noticed some metal particles though. Only a UOA can give me some answers though. However comparing a friend of mine who is using this same engine with the same mileage, mine sounds a lot better. He is using 20W-50 dino since new , which was 7 years ago, and I have been using syn since the overhaul. A quick inspection through the oil fill cap reveals my rockers are clean, and his were slightly sludgy. Also his valvetrain made a lot of noises on cold startup unlike mine. The other thing I noticed also was if during cold startup he switched his air cond on, his whole engine will vibrate and his rpm would drop badly, He was surprised that I could even switch on the air cond on my car on cold start up and it wouldn't hesitate. So I am sold on synthetics.
here are the engine cut outs

 

[Olas]

Well, compared to your friend it seems like your engine is in good order. I'd be tempted to check the valve lash and the ADBV and if they both check out OK then either;
Dump some moly in to see if it helps
Learn to live with the noise
or
Get your stethoscope out and have someone start the engine while you listen close and try to pinpoint exactly where the noise is from.

 

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Well, compared to your friend it seems like your engine is in good order. I'd be tempted to check the valve lash and the ADBV and if they both check out OK then either;
Dump some moly in to see if it helps
Learn to live with the noise
or
Get your stethoscope out and have someone start the engine while you listen close and try to pinpoint exactly where the noise is from.

Ok, I think I will probably have to get the valve clearances checked. Is it normal to have them readjusted for different grades of oil ? I am also curious to see how clean are the synthetics keeping the valve train and the valve cover.

 

[Olas]

Massive kudos on the BBS splits - I'd love those wheels for my Rocco!

Valve lash shouldn't have to be readjusted for different grades of oil, once its set it should be good for 50?k miles..but it only takes one valve to be 0.01mm out and you start to hear noises so check them just incase..plus you'll be able to do the cleanliness inspection you mentioned in the previous post.
does you oil filter mount horizontally or vertically? it might be draining when the engine is off which is why I think you should look at the ADBV..

If you're feeling extra brave you could swap in a 4G63, get rid of the noise and put a smile on your face at the same time

 

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Massive kudos on the BBS splits - I'd love those wheels for my Rocco!

Valve lash shouldn't have to be readjusted for different grades of oil, once its set it should be good for 50?k miles..but it only takes one valve to be 0.01mm out and you start to hear noises so check them just incase..plus you'll be able to do the cleanliness inspection you mentioned in the previous post.
does you oil filter mount horizontally or vertically? it might be draining when the engine is off which is why I think you should look at the ADBV..

If you're feeling extra brave you could swap in a 4G63, get rid of the noise and put a smile on your face at the same time

The oil filter mounts at an angle, like 50 degrees. Actually the sound comes when the engine has been up to operating temps, not at startup, that's what worries me, but then again could be valve clearances are too loose as you said, and it could be just a coincidence they became loose just this week. Nope, I am not feeling brave at all !

 

[Zaedock]

Any oil is too thick when cold, including a zero weight. There is nothing wrong with running a 0W40 in your climate. As mentioned, I would investigate the valve lash.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Olas
JMO, but I think a 0wXX is too thin for your climate - I'd use a good quality 5/10wXX(probably 30 or 40) and see if that makes a difference.

Are your followers solid shimmed? or Hydraulic? do you KNOW your valve clearance is correct? does that engine have variable valve timing? any metallic particles in the oil when you change it?



How is a 0w-40 too thin for his engine? Its a 40 grade,period.
With that comment you've lost any potential credibility you may have had. Its obvious you've got no idea how oil grades work with a comment like that.

OP.
M1 0w-40 is a fantastic oil. One of the best on earth. And honestly you don't need such thick oils. Your handbook was written when oil tech was still in the Stone Age so I wouldn't even give it a second look as far as oil recommendations.
Now what are your peak oil temps? What's your hot oil pressure at idle and at highway speeds and at what rpm.
Today's oils are light years ahead of what your car was originally specified,and there is no need for any 50 grade oils unless you're running a turbo or something.
If oil consumption is an issue I suggest an hdeo/diesel oil. A 10w-30 would be my first pick followed by a 15w-40.
Olas stating that a 0w-40 is too thin is truly absurd. At operating temp a 15w-40 and 0w-40 are the same thickness,so to imply its to thin is truly laughable.
The 0w-40 will be thinner at start up,which mean less drag on the engine to pump the oil,which is desirable,not detrimental. A truly absurd,and bad advice.
OP
At what mileage are you changing your oil? If 5000miles/8000kms or less than forget using a synthetic. Synthetics last longer in service and have some benefits in extremely cold/hot operating temps so unless you frequently see oil temps of 300f or more,or are running extended drains don't bother with a synthetic. Just costs more per mile if running standard(short) intervals.
And engine noise really isn't a big deal. Just because its noisy it doesn't mean more wear.
And quiet doesn't mean less wear.
How many miles/kms on the rebuild. New engines will consume oil until completely broken in so if the engine is very low mile I wouldn't be concerned.
As long as you seated the rings properly you'll be fine in time.
I'd be looking at 30 grades for your engine to be honest. Start there,get a sample analyzed and go from there.
Thicker oil doesn't mean less wear.

 

[Garak]

Yes, the 0w-XX isn't too thin. Either the 40 grade chosen is too thin on its own merits, or its not - and I'm going to say it's not. There are very few vehicles out there where a 40 is too thin. M1 0w-40 is one of the finest lubricants out there. Nonetheless, we do hear noise complaints from some. Heck, we hear noise complaints about all kinds of oils.

Different oils sounds different in different engines and some people are more sensitive to that than others. I can never hear the difference, but it doesn't mean you can't or others can't. It might be harmless, but you're the one who has to choose whether to live with it or not, so the decision is up to you.

Most of the usual suspects have been mentioned. Checking valve clearance as you suggested can't hurt. A good filter with an ADBV won't hurt, either. Some talk about oils with good shots of boron or even moly. With respect to additives, though, you're not going to see me advocating them. Generally speaking, the oil you buy on the shelf is either good enough or it is not. If it isn't good enough, why are you buying it?

 

[Olas]

Ok so I missed the part where he said the noise is at temperature, not on a cold start... I've never met the guy and never seen his car, so it's no wonder that I might have misdiagnosed over the internet at silly o'clock in the morning.

I think its fair to say, though, that too thin an oil will likely be noisier than the correct viscosity or one thats too thick.

Would it make you guys sleep easier if I had a disclaimer in my sig? and how can we truly comment on the 'best' viscosity without knowing the specs of the oil pump, the oil temperature or the bearing clearances? it's hard to be right all the time, especially when you only know about 15% of the necessary details to give an accurate, valid answer.

I dont want this to descend into an argument as I've only been here a few hours, lets try and keep it smiley and civil

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Olas
I think its fair to say, though, that too thin an oil will likely be noisier than the correct viscosity or one thats too thick.

Would it make you guys sleep easier if I had a disclaimer in my sig?

Something out of spec on either end has the potential to be noisy. My point, at least, was simply that a 40 of any sort is simply not going to be too thick for this engine (particularly given that it's in good shape). How many engines actually require something thicker than a 40 - i.e. where 40 would be too thin?

Some of us get a little sore when people state that a 0w-XX anything is too thin for a certain climate. Personally, some parts person once told me that 0w-40 was too thin for my Audi, but 10w-30 would be okay. Yep, I sure followed that advice.

 

[Olas]

Ok I take your point, I said that I thought 0wXX was too thin because I assumed the noise was on a cold start, not at full temp.
Re your question of where a 40 would be too thin - well BMW spec a 60 for some of their 'M' series lumps, I know a few aircooled VW guys who use a 50 in their Beetles, Karmann Ghias, Campers etc but aircooleds are usually harder on their oil and some of those guys are trying to make up for worn bearings - this doesn't apply to the OP though, with a radiator and a seemingly healthy engine.
FWIW, the owners manual suggests 5w30 for colder climates and 10w40 for warmer climates.

 

[Garak]

If there was startup noise, I wouldn't blame the 0w-XX, even then. Startup noise is usually for the very brief periods it takes for oil to flow, regardless of how cold the cold start actually is. The thinnest 20 grade is still way thicker at any ambient starting temperature than is any 40 at operating temperatures.

And yes, there are oddball examples and worn bearings. In this case, everything from a 5w-30 to a 15w-40 would do perfectly fine, I'm sure. I'm not one to change by seasons if it's at all avoidable, and 5w-30 is far stouter than a lot of people realize. I have zero patience for 10w-40, though. If I want a 40 grade conventional, there's 15w-40 HDEO. If I want a 40 that isn't a 15w-40, there are 0w-40 and 5w-40 options. GM was anti-10w-40 many years ago here, and I never got over that prejudice, I guess.

Part of the issue, too, is that guys who want a 40 grade conventional in North America are often looking for something with an enhanced ZDDP level for an older application. They get the idea that because 10w-40 has different limits than ILSAC grades, they'll get more ZDDP, and that decidedly isn't guaranteed. Hence, if it were me, I'd choose a 15w-40 in such a hypothetical situation.

I recommended 10w-40 once in my entire life. Someone in this city wanted a synthetic oil that met the specs for their older Cummins, but wanted to use it in the winter and it had to be Royal Purple. Their 10w-40 met the API requirements along with his needed viscosity, whereas their 5w-40 and 0w-40 were European type oils and not HDEOs, and more money, to boot.

 

[chubbs1]

Olas, don't take anything personal. We all get blasted every once and a while
OP: Acoustics are very interesting. I seriously doubt you have a problem and I would just finish this run and go back to what you used with no issues (Helix 5w40).

 

[alcyon]

I want to thank every one who has chipped in to this discussion, I am now in Italy freezing my [censored] off, and will only be back in hot Malaysia end of this week, so my car is the least of my worries right now. when I reach Malaysia then I will worry about it again.

 

[alcyon]

UOA of this oil.