Napa ProSelect

[SLATRON]

So i just changed the oil on my friends Dodge and i decided to cut open the Napa ProSelect (Wix) filter to see how dirty, trying to extend oci for her. First off there were very few pleats on the element, but worse is there is no bypass on this filter at all? It has a kind of hard ADBV, and i like the actual spring wix uses, but don't understand why there is no bypass, all the other filters i have cut open have them. I'm glad i changed it for her, only 4k miles on the oil but it has been getting cold here and without a bypass it seems bad for the engine at 5 degree F startup. Plus the "iffy lube" place that did the last oil change (July) had 10w30 written on the window sticker.
Has anyone else cut open a preselect that had no bypass?

I will take some pics at some point too

 

[dlundblad]

Someone correct me but I don't think the Pro Select is the Wix filter we all know and love. That would be the Napa Gold. It "might" be made by Wix, but its a lower tier filter.

The ADBV was probably hard because it was rubber rather than silicone.

Looking forward to the pics!

 

[Realtech214]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Someone correct me but I don't think the Pro Select is the Wix filter we all know and love. That would be the Napa Gold. It "might" be made by Wix, but its a lower tier filter.

The ADBV was probably hard because it was rubber rather than silicone.

Looking forward to the pics!



YES

 

[SLATRON]

Yeah i think its Napa's cheapest filter so its definitely a rubber ADBV, it says Affinia on the can, which is Wix I believe. So i put a Napa silver back on the car before i cut open the PS, i am confused if these are basically the same filter? The PS more for shops/garages to use, and the Silver more for customers doing own changes. My Napa usually has the silver & PS depending on the application. But the workers there told me the PS & Silver are the same thing with different box and paint job on can.
Is the silver a step up from the ProSelect? I've read this discussion on here before but not sure the answer.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: SLATRON
.... First off there were very few pleats on the element, but worse is there is no bypass on this filter at all? It has a kind of hard ADBV, and i like the actual spring wix uses, but don't understand why there is no bypass, all the other filters i have cut open have them....

I'd like to know the application number, but I'm guessing it does have a bypass. In this case it's combined with the nitrile adbv and referred to as a "combo valve".

In the NPS it looks like a large rubber grommet (ARCO's description). The new MicroGard would then be similar for this application. I do not care for a combo valve design because of potential reliability issues with using nitrile as a bypass. Just me. Check the third picture in the link below and the youtube. Note the yt maker makes a correction to his no bypass comment on the video with text.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182633

 

[KCJeep]

Yep you probably had one with the combo valve. If the ADBV seemed large and extended down into the center tube, yep that was it. It's pictured in the video sayjac linked.

Wix's combo arrangement is regarded with high suspicion here, but I've been testing one for several thousand miles now, to include the coldest temps we'll ever see in MO. It works and works well much to my surprise.

The only difference I'm aware of between the Pro-Select and the the Silvers I've seen directly compared, Silver usually had a couple more pleats in a given size. And a better paint job. That's it.

I am pretty high on them right now as they are incredibly cheap, work well and actually come in a spec size as well as an oversize option for my Jeep.

 

[Sayjac]

To elaborate on why I don't care for the for the nitrile 'combo valve' design. First, the main reason for the combo valve design is to save on manufacturing costs. This is why you will not see a combo valve used on Wix branded filters or Napa Gold line, which are the same filter's. They all have a separate adbv and bypass. It's also why the illustrious ecores use a combo valve, to save money.

Second, it's common knowledge that nitrile adbv's while perfectly acceptable and functional are not as reliable and durable as silicone over longer oci's and temperature extremes. Nitrile tends to harden, become less pliable over time and temperature changes. But, when acting as just an adbv the worst one might get is a some start up rattle, which is not generally a death knell for an engine. It's more of an irratation or aggravation.

With a combo valve if the hardening occurs, there's also now a chance the bypass would not function as designed and spec'd. That would/could be a more serious issue than some start up rattle. With a separate mechanical bypass and adbv, the adbv material is unrelated to the bypass funtion. Even the folks that make the orange can think it important enough to keep a separate bypass and adbv.

All that said, if run for ~5k mi oci's the filters with combo valve will likely be ok. If it came as part of some super O'R oil/promo I might use one, or not. With all the reasonably priced value filters with separate adbv and bypass, the NPS or Silver's with combo valves wouldn't be my first or second choice. My.02

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
To elaborate on why I don't care for the for the nitrile 'combo valve' design. First, the main reason for the combo valve design is to save on manufacturing costs. This is why you will not see a combo valve used on Wix branded filters or Napa Gold line, which are the same filter's. They all have a separate adbv and bypass. It's also why the illustrious ecores use a combo valve, to save money.

Second, it's common knowledge that nitrile adbv's while perfectly acceptable and functional are not as reliable and durable as silicone over longer oci's and temperature extremes. Nitrile tends to harden, become less pliable over time and temperature changes. But, when acting as just an adbv the worst one might get is a some start up rattle, which is not generally a death knell for an engine. It's more of an irratation or aggravation.

With a combo valve if the hardening occurs, there's also now a chance the bypass would not function as designed and spec'd. That would/could be a more serious issue than some start up rattle. With a separate mechanical bypass and adbv, the adbv material is unrelated to the bypass funtion. Even the folks that make the orange can think it important enough to keep a separate bypass and adbv.

All that said, if run for ~5k mi oci's the filters with combo valve will likely be ok. If it came as part of a super O'R oil/promo I might use one, or not. With all the reasonably priced value filters with separate adbv and bypass, the NPS or Silver's with combo valves wouldn't be my first or second choice. My.02


Well stated! Just say no to combo valves for the reasons stated. More than one engineer in the filter industry has stated that the combo valve is not ready for prime time.

 

[KCJeep]

To each his own I guess, we sure have plenty to choose from.

A couple thousand miles in now with a notoriously picky Jeep and some extreme cold start ups. I've had no start up rattle or issues at all despite the nitrile ADBV and the combo valve that is so disparaged here. The Jeep usually starts complaining with filters it doesn't like in the 40's. The Silver has still performed admirably down into single digits. IMO Wix got it right.

The combo valved Silver is the only filter I've run so far that matches the FL-400S in cold start performance, ironic as its a night and day design variation from the FL-400s.

The Fram Tough Guard comes in a very, very close second. Another different design again. Interesting.

 

[Sayjac]

The thing about Wix getting it right is, Wix filters don't use a combo valve design on their branded filter. The NPS and Silver are Wix 'made for' Napa filters. Similar to the O'R MicroGard and Auto Extra are Wix made for's. So Wix has not embraced the nitrile combo valve design for their own branded filters. They merely offer them as an additional way to reduce manufacturing costs for the lower than Wix/Napa Gold tier 'made for' filters.

But if one is satisfied with the combo valve design after knowing the reason for a combo valve, and potential weakness of such as opposed to a traditional separate adbv and bypass, then that's their choice. Caveat emptor is always good course to follow.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: sayjac

Second, it's common knowledge that nitrile adbv's while perfectly acceptable and functional are not as reliable and durable as silicone over longer oci's and temperature extremes. Nitrile tends to harden, become less pliable over time and temperature changes. But, when acting as just an adbv the worst one might get is a some start up rattle, which is not generally a death knell for an engine. It's more of an irratation or aggravation.

With a combo valve if the hardening occurs, there's also now a chance the bypass would not function as designed and spec'd. That would/could be a more serious issue than some start up rattle.


Yep, hard to say how a combo ADBV/bypass valve operates at very cold temperatures if made of nitrile. Don't think anyone uses silicone for their combo valves, but could be wrong. Guess I don't really trust combo valves ... would rather have a silicone ADBV and a traditional steel spring loaded bypass valve.

 

[KCJeep]

I understand but who cares if it works. And the savings are being passed on to me. I bought the Silvers I'm using for $2.54 each.

I don't think cost alone is the reason for the combo valve though. My first assortment of Silvers had three entirely different ADBV/Bypass valve arrangements, but all were only $2.54.

Most of the objections to the combo valve I've seen have been theoretical and speculative. I noticed that previously and decided to actually test one. Now that I've actually used one I'm pleased to report they are actually good performers (for me anyway) and a tremendous value.

Haven't cut one yet but that's coming I have a couple in use right now that the miles are racking up on. If I don't like what I see when I cut then all this is out the window ha ha.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I understand but who cares if it works.

Most of the objections to the combo valve I've seen have been theoretical and speculative.

Haven't cut one yet but that's coming I have a couple in use right now that the miles are racking up on. If I don't like what I see when I cut then all this is out the window ha ha.


Yes, the theories are just speculative, but makes sense that if the nitrile rubber is very cold and stiff that the bypass function of the combo valve might be compromised - exactly how is unproven. But if the bypass PSI was higher due to a stiff combo valve, it's possible that could put undue stress on the media and cause a blow-out like what's been posted a few times here.

Guess I'm not brave enough to "test one out". If you are using these filters in extreme cold weather, then I'd be curious to see the cut open filters to see how the media has taken the use in that kind of environment.

 

[KCJeep]

I am, and you will!

Was not my original plan, twas to be a cheap little experiment but it has worked so well it marches on.

I would think if nitrile hardening was a problem, it would be noticeable in ADBV failure quit readily in my picky Jeep. Never mind the bypass I'd be pulling it as soon as it started giving me start up rattle.

Kinda throws some conventional wisdom to question as well, I'm getting great starts in bitter cold from a nitrile ADBV filter in a very picky vehicle. The only other filter to do that as well has been the silicone ADBV FL-400s, the ones I've cut have been very, very soft and pliable. Will be interesting to see how the Silver's nitrile valve feels in comparison.

 

[Sayjac]

As said, to each their own. I don't trust a piece of rubber alone to function as a bypass that is supposed to open/close at a given psi, so that a filter maker can reduce costs. And I also don't believe engine noise or start up rattle based on one vehicle anecdote would be the sole indicator of whether the bypass is functioning at the correct psi range. There also could be other filter construction factors contributing to a specific noise anecdote.

The adbv portion could be maintaining enough seal to hold oil on shut down, and the bypass not be opening or closing at the spec'd psi in operational conditions. Either bypassing more oil unbeknownst to the owner, or not going into bypass soon enough. The latter combined with the open cage design and sparse pleating could be an explanation for the blown out media seen on ecore pics posted here.

Another way to look at it, 'if' the combo valve was a superior or even equal design to separate adbv and bypass, the cheaper combo valve design would be adopted as the standard for a bypass designs. It has not been. Even Wix won't use the combo valve in thier branded filters. That says something to me. Curious too is that even all the NPS and Silver don't use combo valves.

Imo, right now users of the filters with combo valves are the beta testers of the combo valve design. Might work for some, especially in non extended ocis. Then again, it might not. I'd use the NPS or Silver with a traditional separate metal spring bypass and adbv. Lacking that I'd pay a bit more for the Gold line or use another readily available value filter with a traditional separate adbv and bypass. Others can be the combo valve beta testers.

 

[MuzzleFlash40]

I've had a silver on the wifes 04 for a bit over 1k. No start up noise and the temps have been in the teens a few of the mornings. It will stay on there for the normal OCI of between 6-7k. The temps will be in the low single digits the next few mornings so we will see then.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I understand but who cares if it works. And the savings are being passed on to me. I bought the Silvers I'm using for $2.54 each.

I don't think cost alone is the reason for the combo valve though. My first assortment of Silvers had three entirely different ADBV/Bypass valve arrangements, but all were only $2.54.

Most of the objections to the combo valve I've seen have been theoretical and speculative. I noticed that previously and decided to actually test one. Now that I've actually used one I'm pleased to report they are actually good performers (for me anyway) and a tremendous value.

Haven't cut one yet but that's coming I have a couple in use right now that the miles are racking up on. If I don't like what I see when I cut then all this is out the window ha ha.
The Silvers are decent, but when you can pick up FL-400Ss from O'Reilly for $1.60 apiece, including tax, as part of their recent promos, hard (actually IMPOSSIBLE) to beat for a silicone ADBV!

 

[KCJeep]

I've never been able to score an FL-400s that cheap, but IMO they are still a good value even at full price. Great filters, one of the most popular on here and for good reason.

Sayjac your mind is made up, but ironically the Napa Gold you keep holding up as a better example of Wix's design DOES NOT WORK for me yet the Silver does. If my Jeep was oil starved in any way believe me it would let me know. Its a great test pig for filters that is for sure.

Anyway I'm sure we all will enjoy pics when I get to that point. I won't be sold till I see the innards anyway. I've got one Silver at about 2k and the one on the Jeep is at about 2.5k it'll be coming off around 4k so a little while yet.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
... Sayjac your mind is made up, but ironically the Napa Gold you keep holding up as a better example of Wix's design DOES NOT WORK for me yet the Silver does. If my Jeep was oil starved in any way believe me it would let me know..

Your specific noise anecdote could have little or nothing to do with the bypass function of the combo valve opening and closing at it's specified psi. Again, the rubber adbv portion could by functioning but either be incurring more frequent or longer bypass events without your knowledge, and be completely unrelated to oil starvation. And your specific vehicle as you admit, seems to have issues with many filters, but there is no known or verifiable cause. So that the Silver has no 'noise' in your anecdote really can't be attributed to any specific cause one way or the other including the combo valve.

You are correct though, my mind is made up that the combo valve is primarily a cost saving design. And to this point, has not been adopted by the majority of oil filter manufacturers including Fram, Purolator and even Wix for there own filters. The only other filter that uses a combo valve is the ecore, and the general opinion of that filter speaks for itself.

While pics will be nice, it will not change the facts of the main reason for the use of a rubber combo valve, and that rubber is determining the bypass function. Unless there is some kind of unlikely media deformation or similar I would not expect to be able to determine much regarding the bypass's overall reliability and durability by the viewing filter pics of a 4k oci. As linked on previous page there is an AE using a combo valve that looks ok.

Thats said, there's enough information in this thread regarding the 'combo valve' design that others can make up there own mind regarding whether to use a filter with one, or not. I agree with Jim's previous comments, and not being a beta tester for the design.

 

[KCJeep]

We'll just agree to disagree then but great discussion like you said anyone else curious about them now has some great feedback and discussion to pull from.

I haven't been this impatient to get a filter run and cut in quite a while, looking forward to it.