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#3210971 - 12/09/13 06:51 AM JP-8 in a diesel
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Wadmalaw island SC
I have learned that JP-8 can be converted for use in a Diesel engine if certain esters are added. My question is what products contain these esters? Diethyl Azelate, Diethly adipate, or bis2 ethyl- hexyl sebacate. These esters lower the wear scar value below what ULS diesel's value is. There are Some other esters as well but these stuck out at me. Any ideas?

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#3210997 - 12/09/13 07:34 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 36224
Loc: New Jersey
IIRC they are part of the fuel additive package. JP-8 adds can be highly toxic.

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#3211210 - 12/09/13 12:31 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
SrDriver Offline


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Southeast Alabama
All I know is when the switch was made from JP-5 to JP-8 in aircraft engines problems were many.

Unless you have access to free JP-8 I can't see any benefit in trying to use it in any diesel engine unless the engine is multi-fuel rated then the is no need in adding anything in that application.

Some military multi-fuel engines come to mind.

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#3211500 - 12/09/13 05:04 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Rat407 Offline


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 899
Loc: North Carolina
I ran JP-8 in my old 91 jetta diesel with no issues. Didn't run it much, just a tank full here and there so no long term effects where noted.

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#3211679 - 12/09/13 08:17 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: SrDriver]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Wadmalaw island SC
I did pretty much get it free, had to haul it out . I've wondered about adding 2 stroke oil like Klotz or Castrol?

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#3212848 - 12/10/13 08:50 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 10993
Loc: OH
How much of this fuel did you snag?
What's wrong wih it, since normally nobody is looking to give away jet fuel?
It would probably be pretty safe to mix this with regular ULSD.
What kind of a diesel would you use it in?
I'd bet it would be just fine in an old mechanical injection engine and maybe not as great in a modern common rail one.
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12 Accord LX 36K PP 0W-20
09 Forester 67K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 144K GOil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 107K Meijer Syn 5W-20
95 BMW 318iC 150K Defy 10W-40

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#3214247 - 12/12/13 08:34 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
bullwinkle Online   confused


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4840
Loc: Cincinnati, OH, USA
I would run it in the old IDI diesels mixed with 50:1 two-stroke oil. The military 6.2 diesel injection pumps have hardened internal components to stand up to the "dry" fuel, I've heard of airline mechs running pumped out Jet-A with an extra fuel/water separator to remove the excess water.
_________________________
06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4 48RE SRW, 93 GMC C3500 6.2 diesel, 89 F-450 7.3 IDI, 98 Cherokee 4.0, 05 Scion xB, 15 Transit 250 3.7

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#3214719 - 12/12/13 05:05 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 15884
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: Groundhog
I have learned that JP-8 can be converted for use in a Diesel engine if certain esters are added. My question is what products contain these esters? Diethyl Azelate, Diethly adipate, or bis2 ethyl- hexyl sebacate. These esters lower the wear scar value below what ULS diesel's value is. There are Some other esters as well but these stuck out at me. Any ideas?


Methyl soyate.
_________________________
Sometimes you just have to shut your mouth and walk away, because it isn't worth the assault charge. smile

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#3216160 - 12/14/13 03:08 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 29804
Loc: Oz
I'd use Rapeseed Ethyl Ester personally Mola...can make either in a coke bottle 'though.

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#3217601 - 12/15/13 05:26 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 15884
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'd use Rapeseed Ethyl Ester personally Mola...can make either in a coke bottle 'though.


Either Rapeseed Ethyl Ester or Methyl Soyate would be good additives. In fact, just about any veggy methyl or ethyl ester would work.

Up here in the northern hemishpere, soybean esters seem to dominate as an additive for the medium distillates.

FOr JP-8, I think about 15% by volume of a veggy ester would be sufficient.


Edited by MolaKule (12/15/13 05:26 PM)
_________________________
Sometimes you just have to shut your mouth and walk away, because it isn't worth the assault charge. smile

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#3218051 - 12/16/13 03:03 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 29804
Loc: Oz
Sorry Mola, was trying (unsuccessfully) to be humerous...

Interesting to see who's lobby groups get what through, as your biodiesel specs pretty much make soy oil the only primary contender...ours make conola the preferred feedstock. Use anything else, and there's something that needs modifying to get it right.

I made a quart in a bottle at work some many moons ago while presenting at a meeting on sustainability...simple stuff, but it made an impact.

Premium diesel usually has 2% RME in it around here.

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#3220974 - 12/18/13 07:27 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: fdcg27]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Wadmalaw island SC
Well about 1k gals. It was used at an engine plant and was considered waste. So being on a farm and not highway use I just had to haul it away. Now I'm all over the road with what to add.
As far as engines I've got everything from a single cyl diesel 8000 hrs pump to an 7430 John Deere.
JD is CR but my others are not
Maybe a dumb question but isn't rapeseed oil same as canola?

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#3221016 - 12/18/13 08:17 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 29804
Loc: Oz
Sort of...Conola is a modified rapeseed, and is typically the "R" in Australian biodiesel.

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#3224343 - 12/22/13 07:35 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 10993
Loc: OH
A thousand gallons for the cost of hauling it off?
Great score!
It might be best not to use it in the CR Deere, but I'd bet that the mechanical IDI engines wouldn't much care.
To Mola and Shannow, what would be a good commercial source for a methyl or ethyl ester to blend with this fuel?
Canola or soybean oil off the grocer's shelf?
_________________________
12 Accord LX 36K PP 0W-20
09 Forester 67K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 144K GOil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 107K Meijer Syn 5W-20
95 BMW 318iC 150K Defy 10W-40

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#3224463 - 12/22/13 09:16 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 29804
Loc: Oz
Anywhere that sells 100% biodiesel...as long as it's pure and clean.

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#3224641 - 12/22/13 01:19 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 10993
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Anywhere that sells 100% biodiesel...as long as it's pure and clean.



Hadn't thought of that.
_________________________
12 Accord LX 36K PP 0W-20
09 Forester 67K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 144K GOil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 107K Meijer Syn 5W-20
95 BMW 318iC 150K Defy 10W-40

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#3224751 - 12/22/13 03:34 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 15884
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Anywhere that sells 100% biodiesel...as long as it's pure and clean.



Or contact ADM or Acme Hardesty which both make good esters.
_________________________
Sometimes you just have to shut your mouth and walk away, because it isn't worth the assault charge. smile

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#3225844 - 12/23/13 06:47 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: SrDriver]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 36224
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: SrDriver
All I know is when the switch was made from JP-5 to JP-8 in aircraft engines problems were many.

.

there was no such thing as a switch from JP-5 to 8. Both are active specifications for currently used fuels. JP-8 is a low flashpoint jet like Jet-A and actively used in army/USMC diesels and generators as well as terrestrially-based jet aircraft and gas turbine engines.

JP-5 is a high flashpoint jet fuel used in ships to operate sea-based jet aircraft, and can be used in place of DFM/F-76 high flashpoint diesel in marine gas turbines.

Both jets are currently dirtier (sulfur content) than equivalent distillate fuels. I'd be careful with the JP-8 additives.

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#3227117 - 12/25/13 08:40 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Wadmalaw island SC
Thank you all for the help, happy holidays
I'm going to go with it.

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#3241506 - 01/08/14 07:45 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
FlewByU Offline


Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 1
Loc: Florida
Some interesting developments in JP-8 as an altrnative deisel fuel.

The Army through the SBIR small business development award program has been working with Alternative Fuels Technology (Redmond MI) for the past several years on mitigating the valve wear problem caused by the low lubricity of JP-8.

Phase 1 and Phase 2 have been completed and they are now selected for Phase 3, commercialization. They did the work on the Bosch CP-3 common rail.

You can view the results of Phase 1 and Phase 2 R&D on the following link go to "filter: type "alt" and view the Alternative Fuels Technology entries. Army has selected them for phase 3 commercialization. More information about that process can be read at the SBIR Phase 3 commercialization brochure


https://portal.armysbir.army.mil/SmallBusinessPortal/Portal/SummaryReports/Default.aspx ......easy access by

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#3264062 - 01/29/14 04:56 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
sixtwoturbo Offline


Registered: 01/28/14
Posts: 33
Loc: Abbotsford, BC
Use it, if not, bring it to me, lol. I know many guys running it, including me. An older Cummin's, 6.0 PS, etc.

If your concerned, just add some 2 stroke oil for some lubricity or a decent additive. You will lose some power so be warned about that.
_________________________
1984 G20 Get A Way van, 6.2 diesel with a remote mounted turbo-HX35 with a billet 60mm HX40 comp wheel, 20 psi, running waste fuels and jet fuel.

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#3375048 - 05/18/14 07:35 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1738
Loc: Kellogg, IA
How much of a difference is there between K-1 kerosene and JP-5 or JP-8?
_________________________
Burn it down.

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#3764290 - 06/18/15 02:26 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: JHZR2]
Joel_MD Offline


Registered: 11/04/14
Posts: 350
Loc: Severna Park, MD
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SrDriver
All I know is when the switch was made from JP-5 to JP-8 in aircraft engines problems were many.

.

there was no such thing as a switch from JP-5 to 8. Both are active specifications for currently used fuels. JP-8 is a low flashpoint jet like Jet-A and actively used in army/USMC diesels and generators as well as terrestrially-based jet aircraft and gas turbine engines.

JP-5 is a high flashpoint jet fuel used in ships to operate sea-based jet aircraft, and can be used in place of DFM/F-76 high flashpoint diesel in marine gas turbines.

Both jets are currently dirtier (sulfur content) than equivalent distillate fuels. I'd be careful with the JP-8 additives.

Perhaps he meant when the USAF switched from JP-4 to JP-8? The Air Force had been slowly converting to JP-8 over many years, but the Green Ramp disaster at Pope AFB in 1994 hastened the end of JP-4 for USAF aircraft.
_________________________
2012 Volvo S60 T5 - Amsoil SS 5W-30
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2003 Saab 9-5 Aero clone - Mobil 1 0W-40

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#3764695 - 06/18/15 09:05 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
WANG Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 418
Loc: North Carolina
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/html/en/products/fuel/additives/lub_doser_systems.html


There's the easy answer to using JP8 where it was not originally intended
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Problem is, the average sportbike buyer is more lumberjack than surgeon." -Richard Pollock

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#3764879 - 06/19/15 04:09 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: WANG]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 29804
Loc: Oz
Like all those additive introducing things, I wonder how they meter it.

In my diesel, the return fuel is quite significant, as it seems to polish the fuel through the course of a tank...i.e. each drop of fuel sees the filter a couple of times.

does it dose every time through ?

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#3764924 - 06/19/15 06:58 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
WANG Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 418
Loc: North Carolina
The lubricity dosers came about when Cummins began providing the powerplants for MRAPs for the US military. Cummins would not warranty the engines to be fueled with JP8 unless these dosers were used. I wonder what the "dope" is that they are administering?

The metering is a good question. Suppose they are somehow modeled after the way additive-introducing coolant filters dose their stuff.
_________________________
"Sportbikes have evolved from an axe into a scalpel.
Problem is, the average sportbike buyer is more lumberjack than surgeon." -Richard Pollock

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#3769114 - 06/23/15 02:24 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
Jetronic Offline


Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 635
Loc: down in the park
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Like all those additive introducing things, I wonder how they meter it.

In my diesel, the return fuel is quite significant, as it seems to polish the fuel through the course of a tank...i.e. each drop of fuel sees the filter a couple of times.

does it dose every time through ?


you can dose the tank every time the filler has been opened... corresponding to the amount added. PSA has been doing it for years with their Eolys additive
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AR Giulietta 2.0 JTDM-2 -- TQI MC3 5w40

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#3769672 - 06/24/15 05:07 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Jetronic]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 29804
Loc: Oz
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
you can dose the tank every time the filler has been opened... corresponding to the amount added. PSA has been doing it for years with their Eolys additive


You drop a whole filter in your tank at fill up ?

my diesel fill hole is only a couple of inches, while the additive containing filter that is being discussed looks a little bigger than that.

Or do you cut it up and add only a portion of the additive containing filter at a time ?

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#3769912 - 06/24/15 10:34 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
ironman_gq Offline


Registered: 04/30/14
Posts: 282
Loc: MN
I think you missed something, the filter goes in line between the tank and the engine and doses the fuel with lubricant as it flows through. The filter gets replaced or recharged on a regular service interval more than likely based on the gallons that have been put through it.

OR you can add lubricant right to the tank every time you fill the vehicle up.

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#3770009 - 06/24/15 11:41 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
Jetronic Offline


Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 635
Loc: down in the park
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
you can dose the tank every time the filler has been opened... corresponding to the amount added. PSA has been doing it for years with their Eolys additive


You drop a whole filter in your tank at fill up ?

my diesel fill hole is only a couple of inches, while the additive containing filter that is being discussed looks a little bigger than that.

Or do you cut it up and add only a portion of the additive containing filter at a time ?


there's a seperate tank with eolys additiven and depending on the amount added to the fuel tank (diesel that is) the eolys tank pumps additive to the fuel tank for a few seconds upon the next start. the eolys additive tank lasts about 100k miles
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AR Giulietta 2.0 JTDM-2 -- TQI MC3 5w40

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#3775094 - 06/29/15 02:21 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Stephen_G Offline


Registered: 04/12/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Mount Holly New Jersey
Treat JP8 like kerosene and mix it with diesel.

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