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#3210971 - 12/09/13 06:51 AM JP-8 in a diesel
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Wadmalaw island SC
I have learned that JP-8 can be converted for use in a Diesel engine if certain esters are added. My question is what products contain these esters? Diethyl Azelate, Diethly adipate, or bis2 ethyl- hexyl sebacate. These esters lower the wear scar value below what ULS diesel's value is. There are Some other esters as well but these stuck out at me. Any ideas?

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#3210997 - 12/09/13 07:34 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33770
Loc: New Jersey
IIRC they are part of the fuel additive package. JP-8 adds can be highly toxic.

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#3211210 - 12/09/13 12:31 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
SrDriver Offline


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 2470
Loc: Southeast Alabama
All I know is when the switch was made from JP-5 to JP-8 in aircraft engines problems were many.

Unless you have access to free JP-8 I can't see any benefit in trying to use it in any diesel engine unless the engine is multi-fuel rated then the is no need in adding anything in that application.

Some military multi-fuel engines come to mind.

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#3211500 - 12/09/13 05:04 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Rat407 Offline


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 759
Loc: North Carolina
I ran JP-8 in my old 91 jetta diesel with no issues. Didn't run it much, just a tank full here and there so no long term effects where noted.

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#3211679 - 12/09/13 08:17 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: SrDriver]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Wadmalaw island SC
I did pretty much get it free, had to haul it out . I've wondered about adding 2 stroke oil like Klotz or Castrol?

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#3212848 - 12/10/13 08:50 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9390
Loc: OH
How much of this fuel did you snag?
What's wrong wih it, since normally nobody is looking to give away jet fuel?
It would probably be pretty safe to mix this with regular ULSD.
What kind of a diesel would you use it in?
I'd bet it would be just fine in an old mechanical injection engine and maybe not as great in a modern common rail one.
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12 Accord LX 22K HGMO 0W-20
09 Forester 64K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 127K G-Oil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 98K Synpower 10W-30
95 BMW 318iC 149K Defy 10W-40

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#3214247 - 12/12/13 08:34 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
bullwinkle Online   confused


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 4079
Loc: Cincinnati, OH, USA
I would run it in the old IDI diesels mixed with 50:1 two-stroke oil. The military 6.2 diesel injection pumps have hardened internal components to stand up to the "dry" fuel, I've heard of airline mechs running pumped out Jet-A with an extra fuel/water separator to remove the excess water.
_________________________
06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4 48RE SRW, 93 GMC C3500 6.2 diesel, 89 F-450 7.3 IDI, 98 Cherokee 4.0, 05 Scion xB, 82 Mercedes 300D, company van 12 Ford E-250 4.6

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#3214719 - 12/12/13 05:05 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Groundhog
I have learned that JP-8 can be converted for use in a Diesel engine if certain esters are added. My question is what products contain these esters? Diethyl Azelate, Diethly adipate, or bis2 ethyl- hexyl sebacate. These esters lower the wear scar value below what ULS diesel's value is. There are Some other esters as well but these stuck out at me. Any ideas?


Methyl soyate.
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"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3216160 - 12/14/13 03:08 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
I'd use Rapeseed Ethyl Ester personally Mola...can make either in a coke bottle 'though.

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#3217601 - 12/15/13 05:26 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'd use Rapeseed Ethyl Ester personally Mola...can make either in a coke bottle 'though.


Either Rapeseed Ethyl Ester or Methyl Soyate would be good additives. In fact, just about any veggy methyl or ethyl ester would work.

Up here in the northern hemishpere, soybean esters seem to dominate as an additive for the medium distillates.

FOr JP-8, I think about 15% by volume of a veggy ester would be sufficient.


Edited by MolaKule (12/15/13 05:26 PM)
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#3218051 - 12/16/13 03:03 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Sorry Mola, was trying (unsuccessfully) to be humerous...

Interesting to see who's lobby groups get what through, as your biodiesel specs pretty much make soy oil the only primary contender...ours make conola the preferred feedstock. Use anything else, and there's something that needs modifying to get it right.

I made a quart in a bottle at work some many moons ago while presenting at a meeting on sustainability...simple stuff, but it made an impact.

Premium diesel usually has 2% RME in it around here.

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#3220974 - 12/18/13 07:27 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: fdcg27]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Wadmalaw island SC
Well about 1k gals. It was used at an engine plant and was considered waste. So being on a farm and not highway use I just had to haul it away. Now I'm all over the road with what to add.
As far as engines I've got everything from a single cyl diesel 8000 hrs pump to an 7430 John Deere.
JD is CR but my others are not
Maybe a dumb question but isn't rapeseed oil same as canola?

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#3221016 - 12/18/13 08:17 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Sort of...Conola is a modified rapeseed, and is typically the "R" in Australian biodiesel.

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#3224343 - 12/22/13 07:35 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9390
Loc: OH
A thousand gallons for the cost of hauling it off?
Great score!
It might be best not to use it in the CR Deere, but I'd bet that the mechanical IDI engines wouldn't much care.
To Mola and Shannow, what would be a good commercial source for a methyl or ethyl ester to blend with this fuel?
Canola or soybean oil off the grocer's shelf?
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09 Forester 64K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 127K G-Oil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 98K Synpower 10W-30
95 BMW 318iC 149K Defy 10W-40

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#3224463 - 12/22/13 09:16 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Anywhere that sells 100% biodiesel...as long as it's pure and clean.

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#3224641 - 12/22/13 01:19 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9390
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Anywhere that sells 100% biodiesel...as long as it's pure and clean.



Hadn't thought of that.
_________________________
12 Accord LX 22K HGMO 0W-20
09 Forester 64K PU 5W-30
02 Accord 127K G-Oil 5W-30
01 Focus ZX3 98K Synpower 10W-30
95 BMW 318iC 149K Defy 10W-40

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#3224751 - 12/22/13 03:34 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Anywhere that sells 100% biodiesel...as long as it's pure and clean.



Or contact ADM or Acme Hardesty which both make good esters.
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"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3225844 - 12/23/13 06:47 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: SrDriver]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33770
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: SrDriver
All I know is when the switch was made from JP-5 to JP-8 in aircraft engines problems were many.

.

there was no such thing as a switch from JP-5 to 8. Both are active specifications for currently used fuels. JP-8 is a low flashpoint jet like Jet-A and actively used in army/USMC diesels and generators as well as terrestrially-based jet aircraft and gas turbine engines.

JP-5 is a high flashpoint jet fuel used in ships to operate sea-based jet aircraft, and can be used in place of DFM/F-76 high flashpoint diesel in marine gas turbines.

Both jets are currently dirtier (sulfur content) than equivalent distillate fuels. I'd be careful with the JP-8 additives.

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#3227117 - 12/25/13 08:40 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Shannow]
Groundhog Offline


Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Wadmalaw island SC
Thank you all for the help, happy holidays
I'm going to go with it.

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#3241506 - 01/08/14 07:45 AM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
FlewByU Offline


Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 1
Loc: Florida
Some interesting developments in JP-8 as an altrnative deisel fuel.

The Army through the SBIR small business development award program has been working with Alternative Fuels Technology (Redmond MI) for the past several years on mitigating the valve wear problem caused by the low lubricity of JP-8.

Phase 1 and Phase 2 have been completed and they are now selected for Phase 3, commercialization. They did the work on the Bosch CP-3 common rail.

You can view the results of Phase 1 and Phase 2 R&D on the following link go to "filter: type "alt" and view the Alternative Fuels Technology entries. Army has selected them for phase 3 commercialization. More information about that process can be read at the SBIR Phase 3 commercialization brochure


https://portal.armysbir.army.mil/SmallBusinessPortal/Portal/SummaryReports/Default.aspx ......easy access by

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#3264062 - 01/29/14 04:56 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
sixtwoturbo Offline


Registered: 01/28/14
Posts: 33
Loc: Abbotsford, BC
Use it, if not, bring it to me, lol. I know many guys running it, including me. An older Cummin's, 6.0 PS, etc.

If your concerned, just add some 2 stroke oil for some lubricity or a decent additive. You will lose some power so be warned about that.
_________________________
1984 G20 Get A Way van, 6.2 diesel with a remote mounted turbo-HX35 with a billet 60mm HX40 comp wheel, 20 psi, running waste fuels and jet fuel.

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#3375048 - 05/18/14 07:35 PM Re: JP-8 in a diesel [Re: Groundhog]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1006
Loc: Kellogg, IA
How much of a difference is there between K-1 kerosene and JP-5 or JP-8?
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Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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