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#3006553 - 05/19/13 10:42 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: 2000Trooper]
jfking106 Offline


Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 178
Loc: GA
Originally Posted By: 2000Trooper
What is the dosing for B12 per qt of oil?


Use 1 ounce per quart to be safe, up to you.

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#3192526 - 11/20/13 01:22 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
cadchris Offline


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Florida
Hi Guys,

I just found this thread doing a search helping a Caddy owner in Finland to duplicate the B12 chemistry.

Back in January, I was helping the same Caddy owner with an old 472 that I suspected had tons of carbon (seized ring pack and combustion chamber carbon). He has finally done leak down testing which further confirms hung open valves from carbon and most likely a carboned ring pack.

Anyway, I got a back door into Berryman to have a lengthy conversation with their tech who then got me in touch with their Chemist Dan Nowlan. To reproduce the B12 for the guy in Europe to do a piston soak, he basically told me to use 2 parts Tolulene : 1 part Acetone : 1 part MEK which seems consistent to the MSDS.

Here's the string of e-mails with lots of info.

*****************************************************************************

Hello,

I was reading about some of your products on different auto forums that were posted a few years ago. From what I read, I think it was said that 1 of your products no longer listed the "oil crankcase flush" procedure. Which product was that?

I think it was also said; that old product was the same formulation and concentration as the B-12 Chemtool® Carburetor, Fuel System and Injector Cleaner or possibly another product in your current product line. I think maybe they were even referring to the regular Chem Dip or Prof. Chem Dip.

Through the many forums I read; they also made similar reference to performing a piston soak to break down carbon and one of the old Berryman products changed their formulation. It was discussed that the old formulation could be found in a different product in the Berryman line as a substitute....I think?

Does this sound familiar?

Thanks,

Kind Regards,
Chris


***************************************************************************

Hello Chris,

The product that we carry that used to state “in the oil or crankcase” is our B-12 Chemtool fuel additive (part #0116). Although we changed the verbiage on the container, the formula remains the same.

The Chem-Dip product did have a formula change but only in the 1-gallon round can (part #0996). This was done due to regulations at the time but the “old” formula can still be purchased in our 5-gallon container (part #0905) and our 1-gallon replenishment can as well (part #0901).

I hope this helps clarify some of what you heard. If you have any other questions, feel free to give me a call or email us back. Thank you for your interest in our products and have a great day.

Respectfully,

Eddie Torres
Plant Manager
Berryman Products, Inc.

*****************************************************************************

Thanks Eddie,

For many years I've seen the Berryman B12 and never used it and I wish I did due to an engine that had been slightly sludged/heavy varnish due to the use of bad bulk fleet oil in the early 90's that had an unknown problem but it was too late as it sludged an entire fleet of trucks, including my 1991 Cadillac Brougham!

Now I would like to start to use the product in its "original intended use" and maybe try some alternative methods with its use!

#1. So why were the "Oil Flush Instructions" removed from the B12 Chemtool?

There are so many rumors on the internet of why those directions were removed mostly of seized motors from either thinned oil or from too much sludged being removed from an engine which could seem plausible and is also an old rumor with any solvent flush including the use of what the old mechanics did by using 1qt of kerosene or Diesel Fuel per 4qts oil.

#2. Also, what product would you recommend to pour into a plug hole for a long soak period to free a suspected carboned-up ring pack?

GM has a product called "Piston & Ring Cleaner p/n 12378549"I
which has a lengthy TSB for a soak procedure for many GM's like Northstar's, Saturns, ect..

My idea is to use some B12 Chemtool, heat it in a electric coffee pot to 200 F., pour into the plug hole, and allow to soak. While the liquid is hot, put a compression checker into the plug hole, and rotate the engine by hand to TDC and force the cleaner into the ring pack under pressure. As compression falls on the gauge, keep doing it to force the hot cleaner down through the ring pack and add more cleaner for a long soak period of a few days. Also, hook up shop air to the quick disconnect of the compression tester to further force pressurized air into the ring pack while at TDC.

#3. I see from the MSDS that the Flash Point for the B12 is: "<20°F by Setaflash closed-cup tester" but I do not see the auto-ignition point of the Barryman Products?

I see the Boiling Range: 133-230°F (approximate).


My thoughts are that hot solvent will work with better efficiency to break down and completely dissolve????? the carbon and free the suspected carboned up ring pack.

#4. Has heating B12 to dissolve carbon ever been tested in your labs?

Since the old oil flush directions for the B12 Chemtool were " add the product to cold oil", I guess the chemicals quickly flash-off and evaporate as the oil temp rises within 5-10 min.

#5. Is that right and the reason/rational to add to cold oil or could there be an ignition of the product if spilled onto a hot manifold when the engine is hot?

I did find this on your site from the "Chemtooller":
" Only by a knowledgeable professional. With advances in electronic management systems in cars produced the last 15-20 years, Berryman no longer recommends this application in the hands of “Do-It-Yourselfers” without the proper equipment to protect electronic sensors and computers."

#6. Can you tell me the specifics of the above bulletin ?

And this from another forum:
"the directions on the back say - Chemtool B-12 vaporizes immediately to clean all internal engine surfaces, dissolving gum and varnish"
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/88498-chemtool-b-12-oil-change.html


#7. What temps is the B12 Chemtool stable at before evaporation or whatever the term is?

#8. Also, I am helping a Cadillac Forum member who is in Finland Europe. Is the B12 Chemtool available in Europe or under a different private label there?


Your advice and guidance is greatly appreciated,

Kind Regards,
Chris


****************************************************************************


FROM CHEMIST AT BERRYMAN:


Hi Chris,

See comments to your questions above:


Because B-12 Chemtool Fuel Treatment (part #s 0116 and 0101) contains 100% strong solvent rather than detergents or weak carriers and diluents, it is quite a versatile product….

1) If you want an engine oil flush, then you can use part # 0116. Pour into your cold crankcase approximately 1˝ oz. of B-12 per quart of oil capacity. For instance, if your vehicle holds 5 quarts of oil, then you would use 7.5 oz. of B-12 or about half of one can. After you’ve added it to your cold oil, start the car and run it at idle 10-15 minutes until it’s warmed up. Then change the spent oil and replace the filter.

2) Regarding the piston soak, if your rings are good, you may be able to use B-12 Chemtool Fuel Treatment for that application, too. The amount of product and soak duration will vary based on cylinder orientation, degree of carbonaceous deposits, piston ring function, etc. In Cadillac a V motor with a bore of about 3ľ”, you’ll need about 400 mL (13˝ fl oz) per cylinder to cover the entire piston. If the rings will hold the product in place, I would soak for a few to several hours and drain. Repeat if necessary. You can try rotating the motor by hand and pressurizing, but it shouldn’t be necessary. Also, do not heat the product to 200°F. The boiling point on some of these solvents is well under that temperature.

3) The auto-ignition temperature of B-12 has not been tested, but the lowest auto-ignition temperature of a major component in B-12 is 725°F. A composite value would be about 900°F. Again, I would not recommend heating the product, not above maybe 90-100°F anyway.

4) B-12 has not been tested at elevated temperatures because it is so effective at ambient temperatures, even on hard carbon. The old directions for engine oil flushing indicated to add it to cold oil so that it has the maximum time to work. It does not take long before the oil has become warm enough to start flashing off the solvents.

5) That statement from our website refers to the fact that some sensors are quite delicate and the strong solvents in B-12 may not always be compatible. Because we cannot know about every sensor on the market, customers are advised to check internet forums for their vehicle and specifically for the task they wish to undertake in order to see if other owners have had issues with the use of cleaning chemicals and, if so, which seem to be the “culprits.”

6) As previously noted, the boiling point of B-12 is rather low. While it starts out liquid in the cold crankcase to dissolve gum and sludge on everything exposed to the oil, its heated vapor can act as a “steam cleaner” for all exposed surfaces throughout the crankcase above the oil until expelled via the PCV valve.

7) Open containers of B-12 will evaporate at any temperature above probably -20°F. Slow evaporation will occur above about 40-50°F, moderate evaporation will occur above about 70-80°F, and marked evaporation will occur above 100°F, especially as it approaches the boiling point of acetone (133°F).

8) I do not know of any sources of B-12 in Europe. We do not private label either.

Thanks for your interest and good luck!

Dan

*************************************************************************************

SO THAT'S BASICALLY EVERYTHING REGARDING OUR E-MAILS.....

-I still have some notes from when I spoke to the chemist "Dan" at Berryman, he said they also make a Combustion Chamber Cleaner #2610

-He also said the Total Fuel System Cleaner #2616 is stronger to be added to the tank.....I THINK.... and said to only use it 2 times per oil change. I'll ask him again and post back.

-The crankcase dilution rate for the #0116 is 1.5oz to 1 qt oil and let idle and not rev the motor because the chemicals will evaporate faster as the engine heats up.

-I told him somewhere I read about I think a BMW forum user who used up to 4oz of B12 Chemtool to 1 gal. fuel for some noticable performance.

-Dan said, it can be used like that without a problem of around 1 can to 5 gallons but the recommended dose is 1oz / 1 gal. of gas every 3 tanks to either clean the combustion chambers and/or to keep them clean.


Well, I hope this helps. I've been having some long terhm health problems sick and can't really do the experiment I've been wanting to do using both the Berryman B12 Chemtool along with a Kreen treatment. That's my plans some day, and I want to document it by pulling the valve cover on my 91 Brougham/305 chevy with around 125k miles and hopefully post pictures........

Regards,
Chris

thumbsup



Edited by cadchris (11/20/13 01:27 AM)
_________________________
91 Fleetwood Brougham
91 Eldo.
87 Vette
89 Integra

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#3192825 - 11/20/13 11:12 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
KCJeep Online   content


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4609
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Great information Chris, thanks for posting!

I've often wondered about a little B12 for cleaning but these days the older info on that is scarce.
_________________________
2004 Jeep GC WJ 4.0 @ 122k Pennzoil HM 10w30 w/MoS2
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 40k, Chevy Lumina 173k, Chrysler Sebring 171k.

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#3193046 - 11/20/13 03:45 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
cadchris Offline


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Florida
I have to ask you guys for some advice......

Is there a section of chemists here that knows or discusses old chemistry's of old vintage car care products?


This is why I posted the B12 stuff and my interest in it because the "OLD SCHOOL" chemicals of a by gone era and which were marketed years ago did have there place, but are long forgotten and not used. Maybe due to incompatilibity concerns of today's fuel systems, but stuff was more potent back then, EPA regulations took it off the market or away from consumers ect....

Many would swear by the old GM TOP END ENGINE CLEANER (TEC) which I was told was removed from even professional use due to the EPA.....I'd like to see some kind of documentation. I wonder if the dealer has a TSB or there was some internal letter that went around to the dealers about it....

I was told, there are only so many chemicals and combos out there and most have been discovered already and all the known formulations have been already made for certain applications years ago. Basically the statement is that there's really nothing new and ground breaking in chemistries and most everything is just a re-invention of old chemistries.

So here's what I've been recently researching. I have a vinyl top on my old Cadillac Brougham and have used an old acrylic vinyl treatment made by Castle Products called NV Vinyl. It's not like Armor-All or has silicone. I discovered that many guys used the old MOP'N'Glo floor wax which seems to have an identical chemistry and dries and lasts for a few months. But was still a water-based acrylic.

Now I discovered bits and pieces of info on different forums that years ago, there was a solevant based? product for vinyl roof and Turtle Wax in the 70's -80's , Phillips 66, Shell, Dupont all also had some different kind of vinyl roof treatment that left a dry hardcoat shiny shellac finish that would last for a year. Those old cans are still out there for sale to the vintage can collectors, but who knows how stable the chemicals are and what they "WERE" made of .........

Anyway, old chemistry's and formula's seemed to really work well from back in the day.....which is why I posted up the B12 info that I researched and decided to use some day to quickly clean out my motor because..."My Life Is Too Short" to wait around for results and also being a plain old American of today's society of wanting immediate results and gratification! USA grin LOL

Of course, if I blow the motor, I'm not proud enough to keep it to myself and will come back b'itch'in. duh


Edited by cadchris (11/20/13 03:51 PM)
_________________________
91 Fleetwood Brougham
91 Eldo.
87 Vette
89 Integra

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#3197998 - 11/25/13 06:07 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
bustednutz Offline


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 942
Loc: Virginia Bch. VA
I used B-12 in an old Audi 5000 I used to have. Poured it into the crankcase and took it out for a high rev aggressive drive. About 30-40 minutes long. Didn't harm a thing. Came home and changed the oil. I used it for a pre change flush. Did it work? Not sure. It certainly didn't hurt anything.
_________________________


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#3210772 - 12/08/13 08:20 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
Toolmaker_Mark Offline


Registered: 10/24/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Indiana
I haven't heard of Kreen, but, I believe in The Berryman products, have for years, I have used the B12 in the crankcases of engine in cars that were pretty sludged up and I think that the if you have a lot of sludge you can get by with driving it, but I usually only do that for a day or two. usually, I buy the can at the store when I get my new oil filter, stop by the gas station pour about what I think is half pint in the oil and the rest in the gas can, drive it home and drain the oil, change the filter and, I usually do this with all of my vehicles,when I get rid of a vehicle it still runs good, just everything else is falling off of it.

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#3258033 - 01/23/14 09:38 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33776
Loc: New Jersey
Nothing else has quieted the lifter tick at startup on my M42 engine in my 91 318i. I plan to use this, as Im getting near the end of my OCI and the car consumes oil on the highway (there is a thread about that someplace, never have gotten to the bottom, but it is roughly 1qt/1000 miles or less!). Car runs beautifully, good efficiency, no smoke that I can see, but also no exterior leaks.

I plan to add this to the oil and idle as recommended, then drain and refill. Hopefully it will do some good. Not sure if I have the guts to drive on it, given that I often have the need for extended highway driving and wouldnt want to put that kind of use on the stuff (though it seems it may vaporize quick under those conditions...).

My engine also is spotless inside. Not sure of in the cylinders themselves...

I have treated my engine and fuel with Kreen, without result.

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#3259879 - 01/25/14 05:44 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: JHZR2]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
no smoke that I can see,


I just gave my Trans Am a treatment of this today. There's absolutely no exhaust smoke but I've got smoke blowing out the breather hole and oil filler when the cap is off.

I put the B12 in the oil fill after it had idled a few minutes and it bubbled up and almost spit back at me. That's why they say add to a dead cold engine. It's very volatile stuff. The engine immediately gained rpm. I think that is the result of the solvents flashing and being sucked into the PVC. I ran at high idle for about an hour. I also shot some aerosol B12 in the carb while it was running.

No noticeable changes.

The biggest thing I did that helped was last week to pour a pint of tap water into the carb while revving the engine. The rpms gained several hundred and have stayed there so far.
_________________________
08 Mustang 4.0 GC
02 Suburban 5.3 M1 0w-30 AFE
75 Corvette Val 0W-20 syn
79 Trans Am M1 TDT
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#3260304 - 01/26/14 07:18 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
jamesyarbrough Offline


Registered: 01/17/14
Posts: 295
Loc: Denison TX
I just read the thread and all I can say is wow. I could never bring myself to pour carb cleaner in my oil fill and then drive it. You guys are brave
_________________________
2006 F-150 M1 0w40 & Bosch
2004 Explorer M1HM 5w30 & Bosch
1986 Lincoln SA200 T6 5w40 & Wix

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#3262066 - 01/27/14 09:53 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: turtlevette]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33776
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
no smoke that I can see,


I just gave my Trans Am a treatment of this today. There's absolutely no exhaust smoke but I've got smoke blowing out the breather hole and oil filler when the cap is off.

I put the B12 in the oil fill after it had idled a few minutes and it bubbled up and almost spit back at me. That's why they say add to a dead cold engine. It's very volatile stuff. The engine immediately gained rpm. I think that is the result of the solvents flashing and being sucked into the PVC. I ran at high idle for about an hour. I also shot some aerosol B12 in the carb while it was running.

No noticeable changes.

The biggest thing I did that helped was last week to pour a pint of tap water into the carb while revving the engine. The rpms gained several hundred and have stayed there so far.





My BMW doesnt have EGR, and sucks a vacuum on the headspace in the oil and valvecover area. Open the oil cap or remove a breather hose and the engine will suck too much air and then stall...

Im not brave enough to put B12 in to a hot sump, even in the winter... But I will give it a try before my next oil change, which may be soon... Since the car has been consuming oil, I havent done one for a while, but Ill change the filter and when I do that, Ill try this...

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#3314344 - 03/16/14 10:50 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33776
Loc: New Jersey
I added 7.5oz of B-12 to my sump today as a test. Ive been running 5w-30 lately due to oil consumption in my 318i, as I wanted to limit converter exposure. I added the B-12 not because the engine was dirty at all or because of the consumption, it was because there is a lifter tick at cold start. Not sure if it is related to the consumption or not, but since nothing else fixed it, I figured Id give this a try. I figured Id go for a short OCI and then replace with something else when the weather gets warmer.

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#3314398 - 03/17/14 12:45 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
cadchris Offline


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Florida
I finally got my Kreen over the weekend but I really needed to get my order to get the Aero-Kroil for a seized bolt on a control arm shaft nut/bolt where my alignment shims keep falling out on my 91 Cadillac Brougham.

Hopefully some day soon, I want to run an oil analysis, take a photo under the valve cover when I get a new camera from the one I dropped, run B12 when doing an oil change flush, take another photo, run the Kreen, then take another photo every 1000 miles.

Too much crisis going on in my life, so who knows when I can do this.

I'm also looking for an articulating Borescope which will take photos and video either by Extech:
Extech HDV640 Borescope

or by Rigel to inspect the combustion chamber and behind the intake valve so I can start to test carbon cleaners.
Rigel Scope
_________________________
91 Fleetwood Brougham
91 Eldo.
87 Vette
89 Integra

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#3314830 - 03/17/14 11:35 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: JHZR2]
KCJeep Online   content


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4609
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I added 7.5oz of B-12 to my sump today as a test. Ive been running 5w-30 lately due to oil consumption in my 318i, as I wanted to limit converter exposure. I added the B-12 not because the engine was dirty at all or because of the consumption, it was because there is a lifter tick at cold start. Not sure if it is related to the consumption or not, but since nothing else fixed it, I figured Id give this a try. I figured Id go for a short OCI and then replace with something else when the weather gets warmer.


I would be very interested in your results, please update later!
_________________________
2004 Jeep GC WJ 4.0 @ 122k Pennzoil HM 10w30 w/MoS2
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 40k, Chevy Lumina 173k, Chrysler Sebring 171k.

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#3314899 - 03/17/14 12:44 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: KCJeep]
cadchris Offline


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Florida
Yes, I promise if I can actually perform my tests which is what I always wanted to do and do a write-up. I'll buy either of those scopes, but personally, I'm going to pieces and so are my cars! A lot of [censored] in my life.
_________________________
91 Fleetwood Brougham
91 Eldo.
87 Vette
89 Integra

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#3316080 - 03/18/14 06:11 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: tommygunn]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5337
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
I'm no chemist....but they seem very similar.....Kreen just keeps their formulation under wraps.....Berryman's is very open per their MSDS......some acetone, methanol, Xylenes, and some other stuff......


I'm done piston soaks with both B12 and Kreen and it's NOT the same thing. Kreen smoke is very bad smelling and very toxic, you don't even want to be near it. Halogenated hydrocarbons is my best guess.

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