HD introduces 2 new bikes

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Originally Posted By: grampi


Anything is comparable to anything as comparing is a verb, meaning it's something that's done by someone...HOW things compare is what matters, and though HDs are routinely compared to other makes, they come up on the short end more often than not...and yes, HD is very good at what they do...selling an image...
And outselling suzuki's.,,


Sales #s do not = a better machine....

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: grampi

These articles do seem to have the HDs fairing a bit better than in other comparos I've seen...the 3rd link was basically an op-ed by someone who is clearly "HD leaning", so hardly objective...the others are conspicuously omitting all Goldwing models, and the Vic Cross Country and Vision. I respectfully disagree with some of what was written in the Cycle World article as I have ridden both that HD and that Vic...the driveline was much smoother on the Vic as was the engine...and how 'bout some comparisons between some of the big HD non-baggers (103s and 110s) vs some big metric cruisers like the Raider, Stryker, M109R, Vic Hammer, Honda F6B...even some of the now discontinued metrics like the VTX, V2K Vulcan, Road Warrior, would be more than comparable to any of the HDs...you should be thanking the metrics for forcing HD out of the old, dark AMF days...had they not done that, HD would've folded altogether....


I only put a couple links down because I wasn't spending all night linking something you can clearly find yourself. My point was there are plenty articles comparing many different bikes to HD's, and the HD's usually fair very well. I feel it would be moot to try to link any more, as is seems all you will do if you cannot agree to the review is to consider the reviewer or the link/magazine biased. As for "thanking the metrics", they had nothing to do with bringing HD out of AMF. Metrics of that time period compared nothing to anything HD was putting out at the time, they were two totally different style of bikes, the Japanese with their 4 cyl inline standards, and HD with their 'sticking with older American retro design". That is, until HD's V-Twin cruiser popularity started to spring up all the metric clones.

As for GW's vs Electra Glides? Well, if I want a very nicely made Japanese bike, with great quality and looks, with quiet engine, and the feeling that I am riding in a Honda Accord with no roof or windows, then a Gold wing is it.

If I want a very nicely made American bike, with great quality and looks, with a rumbly, distinct sounding/feeling engine, with 4 cylinders LESS than the aforementioned GW, and a feeling that I am actually ON a motorcycle, then Electra-Glide, it is

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: grampi

Anything is comparable to anything as comparing is a verb, meaning it's something that's done by someone...HOW things compare is what matters, and though HDs are routinely compared to other makes, they come up on the short end more often than not...and yes, HD is very good at what they do...selling an image...

I can never tell if your talking about a Harley or a Toyota. I find it incredibly strange how you hold yourself to different standards than you hold other motorcyclist to.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: grampi


the 3rd link was basically an op-ed by someone who is clearly "HD leaning", so hardly objective...


It was a humorous article, but there was little about the substance of the bikes. It was all about styling.

Back in the '80s, if I pulled up alongside a VT1100C Shadow in the staging lanes on my '81 GPz550, I had to worry about whether or not I was going to beat him.

Fast forward a 20 years. I pull up alongside a Vulcan 1500. No worries. He's got almost 4X the displacement and he is going to see nothing but the disappearing taillight of my 400.

It's not just the performance. They were good riding bikes. Essentially UJMs with pullback bars, V-twins, and stepped seats. No, they didn't look like a 1985 Ironhead Sportster. Fortunately they didn't ride like one either. Or break down like one.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Propflux01
Originally Posted By: grampi

These articles do seem to have the HDs fairing a bit better than in other comparos I've seen...the 3rd link was basically an op-ed by someone who is clearly "HD leaning", so hardly objective...the others are conspicuously omitting all Goldwing models, and the Vic Cross Country and Vision. I respectfully disagree with some of what was written in the Cycle World article as I have ridden both that HD and that Vic...the driveline was much smoother on the Vic as was the engine...and how 'bout some comparisons between some of the big HD non-baggers (103s and 110s) vs some big metric cruisers like the Raider, Stryker, M109R, Vic Hammer, Honda F6B...even some of the now discontinued metrics like the VTX, V2K Vulcan, Road Warrior, would be more than comparable to any of the HDs...you should be thanking the metrics for forcing HD out of the old, dark AMF days...had they not done that, HD would've folded altogether....


I only put a couple links down because I wasn't spending all night linking something you can clearly find yourself. My point was there are plenty articles comparing many different bikes to HD's, and the HD's usually fair very well. I feel it would be moot to try to link any more, as is seems all you will do if you cannot agree to the review is to consider the reviewer or the link/magazine biased. As for "thanking the metrics", they had nothing to do with bringing HD out of AMF. Metrics of that time period compared nothing to anything HD was putting out at the time, they were two totally different style of bikes, the Japanese with their 4 cyl inline standards, and HD with their 'sticking with older American retro design". That is, until HD's V-Twin cruiser popularity started to spring up all the metric clones.

As for GW's vs Electra Glides? Well, if I want a very nicely made Japanese bike, with great quality and looks, with quiet engine, and the feeling that I am riding in a Honda Accord with no roof or windows, then a Gold wing is it.

If I want a very nicely made American bike, with great quality and looks, with a rumbly, distinct sounding/feeling engine, with 4 cylinders LESS than the aforementioned GW, and a feeling that I am actually ON a motorcycle, then Electra-Glide, it is


Whether you want to admit it or not, the metrics forced HD to build better machines...people simply were not buying HDs back in the AMF days because they were junk...people were buying metrics in droves and HD knew they had to improve or close up shop...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: grampi

Anything is comparable to anything as comparing is a verb, meaning it's something that's done by someone...HOW things compare is what matters, and though HDs are routinely compared to other makes, they come up on the short end more often than not...and yes, HD is very good at what they do...selling an image...

I can never tell if your talking about a Harley or a Toyota. I find it incredibly strange how you hold yourself to different standards than you hold other motorcyclist to.


I have no idea what you're talking about...sounds like you don't either....

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: grampi

Anything is comparable to anything as comparing is a verb, meaning it's something that's done by someone...HOW things compare is what matters, and though HDs are routinely compared to other makes, they come up on the short end more often than not...and yes, HD is very good at what they do...selling an image...

I can never tell if your talking about a Harley or a Toyota. I find it incredibly strange how you hold yourself to different standards than you hold other motorcyclist to.


I have no idea what you're talking about...sounds like you don't either....

Just about everything you criticize Harley for, applies to your car. Your car doesn't have the best brakes, it doesn't have the most powerful engine, it's an antiquated design, it a simplistic design, it doesn't do any one thing well. The Corolla is good enough for you, but you chastise Harley owners for owning a bike that is good enough for them. You hold Harley owners to a higher standard than you do yourself. Admit Harleys are good bikes.

 

[Robenstein]

The above poster is right. The Japanese forced American companies to build better cars and in this case motorcycles. The Japanese utterly destroyed the British makes, and nearly did it to Harley as well.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: grampi

Whether you want to admit it or not, the metrics forced HD to build better machines...people simply were not buying HDs back in the AMF days because they were junk...people were buying metrics in droves and HD knew they had to improve or close up shop...


If you review your HD/AMF history, AMF wanted a way out of HD. AMF HD's were junk, no doubt about that at all. In Fact, EVERYTHING AMF made was junk, from bicycles to Bowling equipment, however it was those who wanted the HD of yesteryear that took control of HD from AMF and made it what it is today. HD never made a MC to compete with a crotch rocket (a new type bike in the early 80's)and never made one to compete with the inline 4's that the big Japanese 4 were making. It was the METRICS that decided to emulate and copy the 'cruiser' style that HD had already been building. And for the touring models, HD already had the Electra glide out years before the big 4 realized that folks were buying Vetter fairings for their bikes for the touring folk. it was only then that Honda produced the GW, with the other 3 soon to follow.

Also, if you remember, Honda's advertisement was "You meet the nicest people on a Honda". How is that advertising and its related success and different than HD's advertisements of a 'bad boy' image that you so deplore?

AS for competition, ANY product that has competition will strive to remain on top. Japanese cars did this to the big 3 American motor companies. Metrics continually strive to surpass HD in their products. But as sales and opinions have determined, they still have not done it, and how many years has the Japanese 4 been producing V-Twin cruisers? Hmmm...

 

[flstffxe]

Some like blonds, some like brunettes others like redheads.

Some like it clean, others like it dirty.

In the end they all get the job done.

20 years riding and 15 years working on motorcycles in shops and on the side, I have never understood people arguing one brand over another. The attitude that Harley is the only real bike and metrics are junk or vice versa that HD is [censored] and the metrics are better. It's obvious that they all have some thing to offer to someone, otherwise they wouldn't be in business.

I have owned or at least rode something from most all the manufactures, each bike had something I enjoyed about it over every other bike.

Different strokes for different folks. Ride the road on what you enjoy and don't worry about how some one else is enjoying their trip down that road. Ride what you like, in the end it is the same road, same wind, same sights and we all are trying to avoid the cager about to take us out.

You may not choose to ride the same bike as someone else, but that doesn't mean you can't have respect that they ride.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Propflux01


If you review your HD/AMF history, AMF wanted a way out of HD. AMF HD's were junk, no doubt about that at all. In Fact, EVERYTHING AMF made was junk, from bicycles to Bowling equipment, however it was those who wanted the HD of yesteryear that took control of HD from AMF and made it what it is today. HD never made a MC to compete with a crotch rocket (a new type bike in the early 80's)and never made one to compete with the inline 4's that the big Japanese 4 were making. It was the METRICS that decided to emulate and copy the 'cruiser' style that HD had already been building. And for the touring models, HD already had the Electra glide out years before the big 4 realized that folks were buying Vetter fairings for their bikes for the touring folk. it was only then that Honda produced the GW, with the other 3 soon to follow.

Also, if you remember, Honda's advertisement was "You meet the nicest people on a Honda". How is that advertising and its related success and different than HD's advertisements of a 'bad boy' image that you so deplore?

AS for competition, ANY product that has competition will strive to remain on top. Japanese cars did this to the big 3 American motor companies. Metrics continually strive to surpass HD in their products. But as sales and opinions have determined, they still have not done it, and how many years has the Japanese 4 been producing V-Twin cruisers? Hmmm...



Hey! my AMF Sunfish was a great sailboat.

That being said, there is a huge variance in quality among the small sailboats from AMF.

To be fair, Kawasaki introduced the KZ900 LTD before Harley Davidson released the Low Rider. Both had pullback bars and stepped seats. They were the first "cruisers". Emulating what owners and customizers had been doing. Kawasaki beat Harley Davidson to it.

No argument on the Electra Glide. How many years were the Gold Wings naked before they got a factory fairing? Harley may have been the innovator there. I don't think BMW had an RT model until the late '70s.

No way a stock 1208cc Shovelhead is going to outrun a stock 903cc Z1

My point was that the '80s metric cruisers were very good mechanically. Better than the Harley Davidsons. They were an odd looking lot but they were good machines.

 

[Propflux01]

"Cruiser" history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_(motorcycle)

"Cruiser is the term for motorcycles that mimic the design style of American machines from the 1930s to the early 1960s, including those made by Harley-Davidson, Indian, Excelsior and Henderson. Japanese companies began producing models evocative of the early cruisers in the mid-1980s, and by 1997 the market had grown to nearly 60 percent of the U.S. market,[1] such that a number of motorcycle manufacturers including BMW, Honda, Moto Guzzi, Yamaha, Suzuki, Triumph and Victory have currently or have had important models evocative of the American cruiser.

The riding position on a cruiser usually, but not always, places the feet forward and the hands up, with the spine erect or leaning back slightly. Many "power cruisers" and Japanese cruisers of the 1980s have featured more neutral riding positions. Cruisers outfitted with luggage for touring are sometimes called baggers."

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Propflux01
"Cruiser" history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_(motorcycle)

"Cruiser is the term for motorcycles that mimic the design style of American machines from the 1930s to the early 1960s, including those made by Harley-Davidson, Indian, Excelsior and Henderson. Japanese companies began producing models evocative of the early cruisers in the mid-1980s, and by 1997 the market had grown to nearly 60 percent of the U.S. market,[1] such that a number of motorcycle manufacturers including BMW, Honda, Moto Guzzi, Yamaha, Suzuki, Triumph and Victory have currently or have had important models evocative of the American cruiser.

The riding position on a cruiser usually, but not always, places the feet forward and the hands up, with the spine erect or leaning back slightly. Many "power cruisers" and Japanese cruisers of the 1980s have featured more neutral riding positions. Cruisers outfitted with luggage for touring are sometimes called baggers."


I question the validity of that definition.

How in the world does this mimic the design of any 1930-1960 motorcycle?

Keep in mind that the Low Rider outsold all other Harley Davidsons in the late '70s.

It's style and name.....no different that designer jeans. I'm not saying that they aren't decent machines. (except for the AMFs....those were garbage) just that they are not built, designed, or anything any better than a Japanese cruiser or BMW R1100C. It's the name brand. There was nothing wrong with the KZ900 LTD that wasn't REALLY wrong with the Low Rider, but it had a brand name.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: whip
Originally Posted By: grampi

Anything is comparable to anything as comparing is a verb, meaning it's something that's done by someone...HOW things compare is what matters, and though HDs are routinely compared to other makes, they come up on the short end more often than not...and yes, HD is very good at what they do...selling an image...

I can never tell if your talking about a Harley or a Toyota. I find it incredibly strange how you hold yourself to different standards than you hold other motorcyclist to.


I have no idea what you're talking about...sounds like you don't either....

Just about everything you criticize Harley for, applies to your car. Your car doesn't have the best brakes, it doesn't have the most powerful engine, it's an antiquated design, it a simplistic design, it doesn't do any one thing well. The Corolla is good enough for you, but you chastise Harley owners for owning a bike that is good enough for them. You hold Harley owners to a higher standard than you do yourself. Admit Harleys are good bikes.


If I had to use one word to describe them it would okay...

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog

I question the validity of that definition.

How in the world does this mimic the design of any 1930-1960 motorcycle?

Keep in mind that the Low Rider outsold all other Harley Davidsons in the late '70s.

It's style and name.....no different that designer jeans. I'm not saying that they aren't decent machines. (except for the AMFs....those were garbage) just that they are not built, designed, or anything any better than a Japanese cruiser or BMW R1100C. It's the name brand. There was nothing wrong with the KZ900 LTD that wasn't REALLY wrong with the Low Rider, but it had a brand name.


You said in earlier post the following:
Quote:

To be fair, Kawasaki introduced the KZ900 LTD before Harley Davidson released the Low Rider. Both had pullback bars and stepped seats. They were the first "cruisers". Emulating what owners and customizers had been doing. Kawasaki beat Harley Davidson to it.


I gave you definition of cruiser.

What you are showing are mainstream company productions of bikes made to emulate the "Chopper" look that people were building and converting bikes to in the 50's and 60's. They are 'milder' versions of those choppers, which really became popular after the movie "Easy Rider" came out. And almost all of them that were chopped and converted back in the day, were Harleys. People didn't start cutting up the Japanese Motorcycles into choppers for quite some time after.

As for definition of cruiser, take a look at an INDIAN brochure or commercial, and it is noted that the Indian is styled like the cruisers of yesteryear. Even Yamaha and Kawa designed their big bagged cruisers to have that retro "50's" look to them. Hence why the aforementioned link describes the style mimicking machines from 30's to 60's.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: grampi

If I had to use one word to describe them it would okay...


Ill give you a

on that, as that is better then what you've been saying earlier!

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: grampi
If I had to use one word to describe them it would okay...

This is progress! What's next? Harley comes out with some high tech infotainment system?

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: whip

This is progress! What's next? Harley comes out with some high tech infotainment system?

I think that might exist on the CVO Road King. The CVO Road King is hosting some firsts for HD as far as technology goes. It is a good sign, but I also like their approach of adopting tech gradually. It will be interesting to see how the CVO RK fares for reliability as far as the electronic systems and the new liquid cooling via the radiators in the knee guards. I may be inaccurate on some of this since its been a while since I've been on the HD site. If I was in the market for a high end touring motorcycle I would indeed be looking at a CVO Road King. That is still a lot of quid for a bike, but then again who am I to talk about high priced bikes (and reliability lol), riding a Ducati?

 

[skully]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
The above poster is right. The Japanese forced American companies to build better cars and in this case motorcycles. The Japanese utterly destroyed the British makes, and nearly did it to Harley as well.


the nerve of some people? what next, healthier food

 

[Silverado12]

I like the H-D because there are so many aftermarket parts for it and I can actually fit on it comfortably being 6'6" tall. I have the "Tallboy" Dyna seat, fwd controls and mini apes. Very comfy bike.