0w20 HTHS question...
- Thread starter gregk24
- Start date
- Status
HTHS is regarded as more important because it is a better indicator of operational viscosity. The KV @ 40/100 values aren't as important since the oil isn't spending much time at those temps, and because it's just two points on a curve.
No such thing as "best" HTHS. It all comes down to what's appropriate for your application. Higher HTHS = thicker oil; you want as thin as possible but as thick as necessary. Most 0w20s are around 2.6-2.7.
No such thing as "best" HTHS. It all comes down to what's appropriate for your application. Higher HTHS = thicker oil; you want as thin as possible but as thick as necessary. Most 0w20s are around 2.6-2.7.
Originally Posted By: dparm
HTHS is regarded as more important because it is a better indicator of operational viscosity. The KV @ 40/100 values aren't as important since the oil isn't spending much time at those temps, and because it's just two points on a curve.
No such thing as "best" HTHS. It all comes down to what's appropriate for your application. Higher HTHS = thicker oil; you want as thin as possible but as thick as necessary. Most 0w20s are around 2.6-2.7.
Would you know what those numbers are for M1 0w20 TGMO 0w20 and PP 0w20?
HTHS is regarded as more important because it is a better indicator of operational viscosity. The KV @ 40/100 values aren't as important since the oil isn't spending much time at those temps, and because it's just two points on a curve.
No such thing as "best" HTHS. It all comes down to what's appropriate for your application. Higher HTHS = thicker oil; you want as thin as possible but as thick as necessary. Most 0w20s are around 2.6-2.7.
Would you know what those numbers are for M1 0w20 TGMO 0w20 and PP 0w20?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: dparm
HTHS is regarded as more important because it is a better indicator of operational viscosity. The KV @ 40/100 values aren't as important since the oil isn't spending much time at those temps, and because it's just two points on a curve.
No such thing as "best" HTHS. It all comes down to what's appropriate for your application. Higher HTHS = thicker oil; you want as thin as possible but as thick as necessary. Most 0w20s are around 2.6-2.7.
Would you know what those numbers are for M1 0w20 TGMO 0w20 and PP 0w20?
Pm Caterham. I'm sure he knows however I'm pretty sure the High Temperature/High Shear values for those 2 oils could be found here somewhere.
Just for a your information euro oils such as German castrol require a high temperature/high shear value of 3.5 as a minimum. I'm not sure if there is a max since I've never seen it discussed.
Just a tidbit for you to think on.
Originally Posted By: dparm
HTHS is regarded as more important because it is a better indicator of operational viscosity. The KV @ 40/100 values aren't as important since the oil isn't spending much time at those temps, and because it's just two points on a curve.
No such thing as "best" HTHS. It all comes down to what's appropriate for your application. Higher HTHS = thicker oil; you want as thin as possible but as thick as necessary. Most 0w20s are around 2.6-2.7.
Would you know what those numbers are for M1 0w20 TGMO 0w20 and PP 0w20?
Pm Caterham. I'm sure he knows however I'm pretty sure the High Temperature/High Shear values for those 2 oils could be found here somewhere.
Just for a your information euro oils such as German castrol require a high temperature/high shear value of 3.5 as a minimum. I'm not sure if there is a max since I've never seen it discussed.
Just a tidbit for you to think on.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: dparm
HTHS is regarded as more important because it is a better indicator of operational viscosity. The KV @ 40/100 values aren't as important since the oil isn't spending much time at those temps, and because it's just two points on a curve.
No such thing as "best" HTHS. It all comes down to what's appropriate for your application. Higher HTHS = thicker oil; you want as thin as possible but as thick as necessary. Most 0w20s are around 2.6-2.7.
Would you know what those numbers are for M1 0w20 TGMO 0w20 and PP 0w20?
Pm Caterham. I'm sure he knows however I'm pretty sure the High Temperature/High Shear values for those 2 oils could be found here somewhere.
Just for a your information euro oils such as German castrol require a high temperature/high shear value of 3.5 as a minimum. I'm not sure if there is a max since I've never seen it discussed.
Just a tidbit for you to think on.
Ok, ill probably give Him a buzz. What are you saying about GC? That wont be going into my engine if thats what your implying, Maybe if I was a highway cruiser...nah probably not. Plus 95% of my driving are trips less than 1 mile, so a 0w20 is the best option.
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: dparm
HTHS is regarded as more important because it is a better indicator of operational viscosity. The KV @ 40/100 values aren't as important since the oil isn't spending much time at those temps, and because it's just two points on a curve.
No such thing as "best" HTHS. It all comes down to what's appropriate for your application. Higher HTHS = thicker oil; you want as thin as possible but as thick as necessary. Most 0w20s are around 2.6-2.7.
Would you know what those numbers are for M1 0w20 TGMO 0w20 and PP 0w20?
Pm Caterham. I'm sure he knows however I'm pretty sure the High Temperature/High Shear values for those 2 oils could be found here somewhere.
Just for a your information euro oils such as German castrol require a high temperature/high shear value of 3.5 as a minimum. I'm not sure if there is a max since I've never seen it discussed.
Just a tidbit for you to think on.
Ok, ill probably give Him a buzz. What are you saying about GC? That wont be going into my engine if thats what your implying, Maybe if I was a highway cruiser...nah probably not. Plus 95% of my driving are trips less than 1 mile, so a 0w20 is the best option.
Don't bug CATERHAM. The information is on the boards. We've beat it to death. I was able to find that M1 is 2.7, PP is 2.6, according to their websites (took me all of 30 seconds).
Not sure about Toyota, as the OEMs don't publish full spec sheets for their branded motor oils. It's probably 2.6 or 2.7.
Not sure about Toyota, as the OEMs don't publish full spec sheets for their branded motor oils. It's probably 2.6 or 2.7.
There are a couple thicker ones like Amsoil [SM and SN] which are both 2.8, and Red Line is 2.9. Just because the HTHS is similar there are other variables to consider like add-pack and base stocks. Then again, when you're talking about petroleum based 0w20's the SN rating pretty much guarantees one is not much better than the other.
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I wish I understood it all, if they are all 2.6 2.7ish then they should perform almost identical in my eyes. But again I dont fully understand.
The ht/hs only gives you a single value and if that was the only important variable then you'd be looking for a mono grade lubricant.
Ht /hs is sorta like the viscosity at operating temp. So let's compare 2 oils.
German castrol and M1 0w-40
Now the German castrol so a 0w-30. Since we know euro spec oils need an ht/hs of 3.5 by your train of thought these oils should be the same,yet they are graded differently.
Now if you look a the kv-40 and kv-100 on both you'd see that the 0w-40 is slightly thicker which is defined by the higher kv value.
So now we need more values in order to measure viscosity in -30 weather.
Now we see that even though the GC is a 0w-30,and has a smaller viscosity spread the GC is actually thicker in sub-zero temps,yet once its exposed to heat its thinner than the 0w-40.
Knowing these values can help a consumer because in the brutal cold we experience where I live if I just looked at GC and the 0w-30 I would assume its thinner at start up than the 0w-40 from M1 based on what little most consumers know about oil.
Yes both oils meet for example a BMW spec however based on the fact the the 0w-40 is thinner when exposed to brutal cold than GC I feel its a better choice while operating under those ambient temps.
Now as the temps increase the GC is thicker at temps similar to spring and summer however at operating temp the GC is thinner than the M1,however based on the spread one can assume again that GC is more shear resistant which isn't always the case.
So yes I feel your pain. Be thankful for bitog.
I wish I understood it all, if they are all 2.6 2.7ish then they should perform almost identical in my eyes. But again I dont fully understand.
The ht/hs only gives you a single value and if that was the only important variable then you'd be looking for a mono grade lubricant.
Ht /hs is sorta like the viscosity at operating temp. So let's compare 2 oils.
German castrol and M1 0w-40
Now the German castrol so a 0w-30. Since we know euro spec oils need an ht/hs of 3.5 by your train of thought these oils should be the same,yet they are graded differently.
Now if you look a the kv-40 and kv-100 on both you'd see that the 0w-40 is slightly thicker which is defined by the higher kv value.
So now we need more values in order to measure viscosity in -30 weather.
Now we see that even though the GC is a 0w-30,and has a smaller viscosity spread the GC is actually thicker in sub-zero temps,yet once its exposed to heat its thinner than the 0w-40.
Knowing these values can help a consumer because in the brutal cold we experience where I live if I just looked at GC and the 0w-30 I would assume its thinner at start up than the 0w-40 from M1 based on what little most consumers know about oil.
Yes both oils meet for example a BMW spec however based on the fact the the 0w-40 is thinner when exposed to brutal cold than GC I feel its a better choice while operating under those ambient temps.
Now as the temps increase the GC is thicker at temps similar to spring and summer however at operating temp the GC is thinner than the M1,however based on the spread one can assume again that GC is more shear resistant which isn't always the case.
So yes I feel your pain. Be thankful for bitog.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Don't bug CATERHAM. The information is on the boards. We've beat it to death. I was able to find that M1 is 2.7, PP is 2.6, according to their websites (took me all of 30 seconds).
Not sure about Toyota, as the OEMs don't publish full spec sheets for their branded motor oils. It's probably 2.6 or 2.7.
CATERHAM states that it's 2.6...and isn't on the data sheet.
Don't bug CATERHAM. The information is on the boards. We've beat it to death. I was able to find that M1 is 2.7, PP is 2.6, according to their websites (took me all of 30 seconds).
Not sure about Toyota, as the OEMs don't publish full spec sheets for their branded motor oils. It's probably 2.6 or 2.7.
CATERHAM states that it's 2.6...and isn't on the data sheet.
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I wish I understood it all, if they are all 2.6 2.7ish then they should perform almost identical in my eyes. But again I dont fully understand.
You do understand. Yes, any oil with an HT/HS viscosity (commonly referred to as HTHSv) of 2.6 should have the same viscosity at that temperature. HTHSv is measured at 150 deg C, and is closer to the temperatures your oil is experiencing in the bearing journals during engine operation. You might have an oil that has a kinematic viscosity of 7.6 at 100 deg C and another oil that is 8.3 at 100 deg C. But, if they both have an HTHSv of 2.6, then they should both be at 2.6 in the areas where it counts. Oil in the sump may be cooler than 150 deg C, but oil in the sump isn't lubricating anything, either.
Here is a brief article on the topic:
http://www.hddeo.com/hthsarticle.html
I wish I understood it all, if they are all 2.6 2.7ish then they should perform almost identical in my eyes. But again I dont fully understand.
You do understand. Yes, any oil with an HT/HS viscosity (commonly referred to as HTHSv) of 2.6 should have the same viscosity at that temperature. HTHSv is measured at 150 deg C, and is closer to the temperatures your oil is experiencing in the bearing journals during engine operation. You might have an oil that has a kinematic viscosity of 7.6 at 100 deg C and another oil that is 8.3 at 100 deg C. But, if they both have an HTHSv of 2.6, then they should both be at 2.6 in the areas where it counts. Oil in the sump may be cooler than 150 deg C, but oil in the sump isn't lubricating anything, either.
Here is a brief article on the topic:
http://www.hddeo.com/hthsarticle.html
I believe the OP is concerned about cold weather startup performance/flow. Why are you guys throwing HT/HS at 150C at him?
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
I believe the OP is concerned about cold weather startup performance/flow. Why are you guys throwing HT/HS at 150C at him?
He asked about HTHS...
I believe the OP is concerned about cold weather startup performance/flow. Why are you guys throwing HT/HS at 150C at him?
He asked about HTHS...
OK, nevermind then. I guess I got thrown off by this:
Quote:
Saw in a recent forum that HTHS is more important than KV (40c and 100c) since actual starting temps are much lower than 40c.
Made me think he wants to know which spec determines the oil's performance at these actual starting temps.
Quote:
Saw in a recent forum that HTHS is more important than KV (40c and 100c) since actual starting temps are much lower than 40c.
Made me think he wants to know which spec determines the oil's performance at these actual starting temps.
To simplify, think of HTHS as the oil's true viscosity. You can somewhat ignore the 0w20, 5w20, 5w30, etc. labeling.
- Status
