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#3198818 - 11/26/13 03:01 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: OVERKILL]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11165
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
As a minor counterpoint, though, Overkill, at least dexos1 certification has visibility on an oil bottle. Reading the fine print for non-BITOGers who don't have all this business memorized is not going to be easy.

Then again, I don't want oil bottles to look like they're plastered with race car liveries, either. M1 logos on the McLaren Mercedes, Mercedes logos on the M1 0w-40, right? wink
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2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
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#3198927 - 11/26/13 04:59 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: OVERKILL]
zuluplus30 Offline


Registered: 11/23/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: zuluplus30
I don't mind the Dexos spec either. It takes GM's two previous oil specs 6094M and 4718M and combines them into one. The old 6094M was just a change in low temp pumpability and was easily met by almost all conventional oils on the shelf. The 4718M was originally a Corvette spec that required lower NOACK volatility and a cap on oxidation at high temps (which were more stringent than the GF4 specs at the time). It's how GM got away with no oil cooler on the Vette because they were struggling with how to package it in the bumper and plumb it. It later found its way into a myriad of other 6.0/6.2+ applications. Currently, it is near impossible to find a DEXOS oil that isn't at least a synblend, most being a full synthetic. It makes me feel much better about going the full life of the OLM, something I've never done on conventional oil. GM also uses it as a way to tout lower overall TCO when they sell a vehicle, which is something all manufacturers are in too right now. That's all worth $.07 a gallon if you ask me.


The point is not the specs but the royalties, something other OEM's don't do with their certifications/approvals.

Specs like LL-01, LL-98....etc are also long-life oil specs and the euro marques maintain lists of approved lubricants. But there are no royalties associated with this, only the cost of obtaining the approval, which is the case for I believe all brands that aren't GM.


If you were EM/SOPUS/Ashland, wouldn't you be happy to pay the royalty now that millions of cars are required to use your higher margin top shelf synthetics vs the traditionally prices conventionals? I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. And so far, the royalty doesn't appear to have been passed on to the consumer.


Edited by zuluplus30 (11/26/13 05:01 PM)

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#3198938 - 11/26/13 05:21 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: zuluplus30]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25249
Loc: Illinoistan
Originally Posted By: zuluplus30
If you were EM/SOPUS/Ashland, wouldn't you be happy to pay the royalty now that millions of cars are required to use your higher margin top shelf synthetics vs the traditionally prices conventionals?

Just because you pay royalty is not a guarantee that someone will actually buy your product. Dexos1 royalty fees are based on potential sales, not actual sales. Besides, these companies likely already had products that met dexos1 requirements. The only thing the royalty fee would give them is the ability to slap on the dexos1 logo on the bottle.

Quote:
And so far, the royalty doesn't appear to have been passed on to the consumer.

It's an extra cost. Sooner or later it'll get passed onto the end user, one way or another. The company won't just gladly eat it.
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#3198939 - 11/26/13 05:22 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: Garak]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2310
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Garak
As a minor counterpoint, though, Overkill, at least dexos1 certification has visibility on an oil bottle. Reading the fine print for non-BITOGers who don't have all this business memorized is not going to be easy.

Then again, I don't want oil bottles to look like they're plastered with race car liveries, either. M1 logos on the McLaren Mercedes, Mercedes logos on the M1 0w-40, right? wink

There's already the NASCAR logo.

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#3198954 - 11/26/13 05:44 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25249
Loc: Illinoistan
And yes, all these long life specs in effect shift the demand from mineral to synthetic oil, except that only GM asks for royalties. Maybe API does too, I can't remember now.

However, as the sales shift from mineral to synthetic, the amount of actual product sold comes down since most people will run the synthetic oil longer.
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#3198991 - 11/26/13 06:51 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I think what is totally amusing about the whole dexos/GM thing is how GM actively promotes flex fuel vehicles using ethanol, but the dexos spec is WEAKER regarding ethanol use than the ILSAC GF-5 spec, which most oils meet along with the API SN spec.

This whole dexos thing is a ruse. Just a way to give those auto owners who have a large paranoia gland something to worry about. I have no problem, in general, with the spec. Just that it is not that big of a deal. I have a 2013 Chevrolet Silverado with a 5.3L engine in it. Since dropping the factory fill oil at 1200 miles, it has not seen any oil that has a dexos emblem on it. It gets Schaeffer 9003D 5w30 which claims it meets and exceeds the dexos spec, but doesn't have the label on the front, nor is it on the "approved" list. I I sleep just fine at night.
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#3199001 - 11/26/13 06:59 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
fdcg27 Online   content


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9171
Loc: OH
There are two separate factors in play here.
GM wanted an oil spec that would allow any of its cars sold worldwide to run safely to OLM limits, a laudable goal.
Yeah, to be adequate for the turbos or for tracked new Corvettes in stock form (all three of them in the continental US) or the DIs such an oil would be overkill for most GM engines, but GM could always adjust the OLM algorithym to account for that and to allow longer drains on the lo-po cars.
So far, so good.
GM then said that if a blender wanted to display the dorky looking Dexos logo on its oil, it would have to pass the certification tests and then pay GM a fee to license this trademarked bit of nonsense.
Many, maybe most blenders balked, and instead give the buyer the information that their oil meets or exceeds Dexos 1, while avoiding the trademark licensing fee.
Most likely all OTS synthetics easily meet Dexos 1, logo or not.
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#3199019 - 11/26/13 07:17 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: y_p_w]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11165
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
There's already the NASCAR logo.

They should put a giant dexos1 logo on GM vehicles in NASCAR. wink
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3199253 - 11/26/13 11:05 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
Sw296inchblue Offline


Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado
If GM had their way, every part your gm car needed (including oil) would only be available from a licensed gm seller/reseller. This scam is 60 years old, they've just found a way to apply the same type of twisted logic with motor oil. Problem is the oil companies blinked.Hopefully these lic. Deals the oil companies signed will expire and not be renewed. This is nonsense, could you imagine, a bottle of oil covered with an approval spec/logo from every manufacturer out their. My 3 Vehicles are all GM

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#3199258 - 11/26/13 11:18 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: Sw296inchblue]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25932
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
could you imagine, a bottle of oil covered with an approval spec/logo from every manufacturer out their. My 3 Vehicles are all GM


I don't think you've looked at many oil bottles lately wink

Next time you are in an auto parts store, take a look at the back of a Mobil 1 0w-40 bottle smile
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#3199262 - 11/26/13 11:42 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: stchman]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Yeah, and if all that stuff isn't listed on the bottle, look at their data sheets. Seems like everyone who makes an engine has their own unique classification, and none of them the typical API or ILSAC classification.
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#3199265 - 11/26/13 11:49 PM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: TiredTrucker]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4826
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
TiredTrucker - The trend towards EOMs and Oil Companies working together is about to gain more momentum

We can expect more very specific lubricant applications as new technologies are introduced by engine Manufacturers. Joint development is the way this is now being done!
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Doug

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#3199328 - 11/27/13 03:33 AM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: OVERKILL]
Sw296inchblue Offline


Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
could you imagine, a bottle of oil covered with an approval spec/logo from every manufacturer out their. My 3 Vehicles are all GM


I don't think you've looked at many oil bottles lately wink

Next time you are in an auto parts store, take a look at the back of a Mobil 1 0w-40 bottle smile
. I meant on the front of the bottle were you see the big dexos logo. This just makes GM look So Petty.

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#3199510 - 11/27/13 09:34 AM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: Sw296inchblue]
cp3 Online   happy


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2558
Loc: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
If GM had their way, every part your gm car needed (including oil) would only be available from a licensed gm seller/reseller.


Just GM? I don't think any other manufacturer would be upset by this either.

QP, Yes API has a license and royalty fee but I think current numbers are slightly higher than what is quoted in your linked article.
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#3199513 - 11/27/13 09:37 AM Re: Why do people want to complain about dexos? [Re: Sw296inchblue]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25932
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Sw296inchblue
could you imagine, a bottle of oil covered with an approval spec/logo from every manufacturer out their. My 3 Vehicles are all GM


I don't think you've looked at many oil bottles lately wink

Next time you are in an auto parts store, take a look at the back of a Mobil 1 0w-40 bottle smile
. I meant on the front of the bottle were you see the big dexos logo. This just makes GM look So Petty.


Gotcha cheers
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