Judge's Take - Honeymoon Over With EVs

[blackman777]

Ward's annual "Best Engine/Motor" competition. LINK: http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-amp-technology/judges-take-honeymoon-over-electric-vehicles

Favorite quote:

"I tried to tell myself we should not judge vehicles by the size of their battery or “fuel tank.” But if we evaluated a gasoline car with a tank that held only two gallons, took 3 to 20 hours to refill, and had an unreliable fuel gauge, it would be savaged. So I could not avert my eyes and think happy thoughts when the Honda Fit EV offered 43 miles of range on a full charge one cold November day, half its touted 82-mile range. I had to drive without the heater."

And: "Much has been said about EVs and plug-ins allowing drivers to avoid the gas pump, but plugging in twice a day can be a bigger hassle than buying gas once a week..... If auto makers can’t even keep fans like me engaged, winning over new converts is going to be a very tough road indeed."

 

[Kuato]

Battery technology has a long way to go before pure electric vehicles can take over. Right now for a city commute under 10 miles or so, electrics are great.

 

[blackman777]

Indeed. Even the Tesla which is maxed-out on battery capacity (and weighs 4700 pounds because of it), only goes 265 miles EPA rating. That's approximately 3 gallons gasoline-equivalent. (And I thought my 10 gallon tank seemed small.)

 

[Win]

I wouldn't mind having a Volt or two. Commutes between our two homes and a few outlying properties excepted, it would rarely use the gasoline engine.

Clearly, these types of cars are niche vehicles, though, and unsuitable for many drivers.

 

[d00df00d]

265 miles on 3 gallons pf gas means >88 MPG. You need a plug-in hybrid system to even come close to that with a gas engine.

Tesla says 265 miles = 3 gallons of fuel for a different reason: they're saying that the power needed for the Model S to go 265 miles is equivalent to the energy in 3 gallons of gasoline. That's ridiculously impressive for a 4700 lb car.

All of these range arguments miss the point for 99% of drivers. If you park at home at night, you'll charge it overnight and come back to a full battery in the morning. Who drives more than 265 miles in a day? Surely some people do, but the vast majority do less than half that.

 

[newtoncd8]

In my opinion, hydrogen fuel cell = future; of course, there are obstacles such as refueling stations, but ...

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you park at home at night, you'll charge it overnight and come back to a full battery in the morning. Who drives more than 265 miles in a day? Surely some people do, but the vast majority do less than half that.
True.
My insight was rated 70mpg. Lupo TDI was advertised as 88mpg on the highway/80 combined. The Tesla EV won't charge overnight unless you rewire your house with 480 volt (which would put another $2000 gasoline in my car). At 120 or 240 volt it can take *days* to refill the 3 gallon-equivalent battery. QUOTE: ".....plugging in twice a day can be a bigger hassle than buying gas once a week....."

 

[javacontour]

Except those were likely Imperial Gallons, not US gallons, so you have to adjust your expectations accordingly.

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you park at home at night, you'll charge it overnight and come back to a full battery in the morning. Who drives more than 265 miles in a day? Surely some people do, but the vast majority do less than half that.
True.
My insight was rated 70mpg. Lupo TDI was advertised as 88mpg on the highway/80 combined. The Tesla EV won't charge overnight unless you rewire your house with 480 volt (which would put another $2000 gasoline in my car). At 120 or 240 volt it can take *days* to refill the 3 gallon-equivalent battery. QUOTE: ".....plugging in twice a day can be a bigger hassle than buying gas once a week....."

 

[djb]

Hydrogen is absurdly difficult to deal with. The combination of low temperature and high pressure is a major engineering challenge. But the real difficulty is long-term safety. Hydrogen diffusion/embrittlement and thermal cycling combine to destroy most materials.

When liquid hydrogen is used as a rocket fuel, it's transferred a few hours before launch, and the parts exposed are used only once. If you leave high pressure hydrogen next to almost any material for years, it's going to fail. Often with no warning.

 

[dparm]

I think the commentors make a good point: it's all about getting the right tool for the right job. EVs are not intended to fully replace gas vehicles in every use case.

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Except those were likely Imperial Gallons.....
Except you're flat wrong. The numbers I quoted for the Lupo were 2.9 Liters/100km which I converted to U.S. miles/gallon (80 combined)

 

[javacontour]

Then wow!

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Except those were likely Imperial Gallons.....
Except you're flat wrong. The numbers I quoted for the Lupo were 2.9 Liters/100km which I converted to U.S. miles/gallon (80 combined)

 

[mount]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
The Tesla EV won't charge overnight unless you rewire your house with 480 volt (which would put another $2000 gasoline in my car). At 120 or 240 volt it can take *days* to refill the 3 gallon-equivalent battery. QUOTE: ".....plugging in twice a day can be a bigger hassle than buying gas once a week....."

Sorry buddy, you're wrong on the 480V. That would be ridiculous to have a 480V service to a residential home.

The wiring required to charge a completely dead battery in 10 hours is 240V 40A, the same as a clothes dryer. Kitchen stove circuits are larger.

If you want a really fast charge (completely dead to full in 5 hours), you need to wire the 240V with a heavier wire to handle 80A.

Remember that you will rarely ever need to charge for the full duration. Most owners do not approach the total range of the car on a daily commute. If you drive over 200 miles on a daily basis, the current Tesla model isn't for you.

To all the naysayers; yes current EV technology may not currently fit into your situation. That's fine; Tesla is aware that the price point of current technology isn't affordable enough yet, so they started out in more of the luxury car segment. Tesla has been successfully able to make the electric car feasible and a market is emerging from it. This is creating a demand, and the technology will continue to improve as the industry gets more experience. Range will increase and these cars will become more affordable and feasible.

 

[glock19]

EV's also make sense for couples. If you have a gas powered car that you can use to take trips, the other could easily be an EV.

 

[fdcg27]

EVs are in their modern infancy as road vehicles.
As more are sold and come into use we'll see more development, just as we have with IC vehicles.
A 1-2% improvement in battery potential each year will add up to what will eventually be a practical pure electric.
That the elctric grid in most areas of the country couldn't handle very many EVs, especially during the summer months, is another matter.
Hybrids are a practical compromise for some users.
Certainly battery potential suffers at either very warm or very cold temperatures.
In the case of the Fit EV, it would end up as a no-go for me on my daily commute and be marginal for my wife on her's, since both of us would like to be able to drive to work and back without worry. My wife would get a little testy about not being able to use the heat as well, not that I'd be thrilled either.
I pass by eight gas stations on my way to work each day, while the only EV charging station I'd have available would be the one I'd have installed in my garage.
If I had a ten mile each way commute, an EV would make a very cheap to operate commuter, since virtually no maintenance would be required.
These are early days yet. It isn't reasonable to dismiss the potential of a source of personal mobility based upon the current state of the art.

 

[Trav]

Its not fast but VW seems to be on the right track at least.

http://gas2.org/2013/11/09/la-2013-volkswagen-announces-256-mpg-diesel-hybrid/

 

[blackman777]

That's only in EV mode. Once the battery runs dry, it drops back to 70mpg on the diesel engine. (Still good, except Lupo3L was getting 80mpg back in 1999, so diesel efficiency has not improved.)

 

[zloveraz]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
(Still good, except Lupo3L was getting 80mpg back in 1999, so diesel efficiency has not improved.)


However great strides in safety and comfort has evolved a lot since 1999 and of course increased weight so when you include all of the factors I think it's much more efficient. Not even mentioning emissions standards.

 

[whip]

My new commute is 40 miles a week. If I was going to buy a new vehicle, I would give serious consideration to an EV. It would be possible for me to charge the car once, and drive to work for the week. Charge it again on Friday, and I could do all my weekend running. I'm married, so I'd have another vehicle when longer trips were needed. Someday, cars like the Tesla will be more affordable, and I could see myself driving one.

 

[hattaresguy]

Well he was driving a Honda not a Tesla.

That's the problem right their, 43 pff the latest model S's are an honest 300 or more, and super charging stations are popping up everywhere. My city gets one next year.