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#3194711 - 11/22/13 11:03 AM Hydrogen powered cars?
Tomcat_80 Offline


Registered: 11/21/13
Posts: 88
Loc: North Carolina, U.S.A.
Hello, new member here. I was noticing on the news this morning; at a car show in Los Angeles, they had I believe some hydrogen powered cars. Is this something we can look forward to seeing in the future? Also, does anyone know if we will see sometime in the future a propane or LNG or LPG powered car or light truck?

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#3194724 - 11/22/13 11:19 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11590
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Hydrogen will require a lot of infrastructure changes - and I mean a lot. Hydrogen is really an energy carrier rather than a real energy source, unless, of course, you're the sun.

I've run LPG cars with good success. The problem here was the the more popular the fuel became, the higher the price became, which destroyed its main advantages. It was also more attractive in older vehicles with fewer emissions controls, too, since you'd get good emissions advantages from conversion.

I certainly would love to see more LPG vehicles again. They were great in taxi service for a lot of reasons. In fact, they spoiled me because of no fuel dilution in the oil. wink
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#3194725 - 11/22/13 11:19 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
sdowney717 Offline


Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 236
Loc: Newport News, VA
If it is a tank of hydrogen, then it has to gas off to relive pressure.
So in a week or so a full tank is empty.

Quote:
The storage problem is also a thorny one. Hydrogen is a gas and it likes to spread out. Putting it in a car means squeezing it down to a reasonable size, and that isn't easy. Furthermore, hydrogen gets warm while it's sitting in the tank of a parked car, which causes the gas to expand. This means that the tanks have to vent the hydrogen periodically from the car. Leave a hydrogen car sitting around for more than a few days and all the fuel will be gone.


http://www.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/hybrid-technology/hydrogen-cars3.htm

So has anything regarding that changed?

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#3194728 - 11/22/13 11:25 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
izualangel Offline


Registered: 11/08/12
Posts: 42
Loc: SL,UT
In Utah LNG conversions are pretty popular. I've seen cars, and light trucks that run on natural gas, and the cost to fill up is still cheaper than gasoline. Given it's popularity here, it's not really hard to find a LNG station where you can fill up.
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#3194730 - 11/22/13 11:29 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1279
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Isn't this hydrogen fuel cells instead of hydrogen gas being burned in combustion chamber?
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#3194733 - 11/22/13 11:33 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
NateDN10 Online   content


Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 1405
Loc: Rochester, NY
Honda has been making a CNG version of the Civic for a while now, and I believe Ford is coming out with a factory-equipped CNG F-150 as well. There are also retrofit kits for other vehicles. However, it's still not cost effective - for example, the CNG Civic starts at over $26,000 while the regular Civic starts at around $18,000.

I recently read an article on C&D that Toyota had been able to reduce the price of its hydrogen fuel cell module by 95% - from $1M to $50,000. And hydrogen has even less availability than CNG.

Maybe at sometime in the future we'll all be driving CNG or hydrogen fueled vehicles, but it won't be in 5 years and probably not in 10 years either.
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#3194735 - 11/22/13 11:34 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: BMWTurboDzl]
sdowney717 Offline


Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 236
Loc: Newport News, VA
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Isn't this hydrogen fuel cells instead of hydrogen gas being burned in combustion chamber?


Car still must have a source of hydrogen in a tank.
Where does the hydrogen go when the car is sitting and the pressures build up?

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#3194736 - 11/22/13 11:35 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6332
Loc: Texas
LPG conversions are relatively easy and common. A buddy has a very nicely converted '64 Dodge truck with a custom-built (high compression) slant-6 to take advantage of the very high effective octane. Great driveability, and more power than a stocker. But he has to travel outside of town very carefully and with a map of available LPG stations.

A co-worker has a CNG powered Civic- those were available a few years ago. Nice package, but its literally tied to the city because there are no other CNG refuelling stations within its driving range right now. Its worse than an EV in terms of where you can drive it, but great for commuting.

The problem I see with hydrogen is creating enough to be a viable fuel. Electrolysis from water is pretty much a non-starter because you have to put in more energy (electricity) than you get back when you burn the hydrogen. OK, so you build massive wind-farms to get "fee" electricity to crack seawater... but that's ridiculous on a large enough scale (and I'd rather use THAT power to de-salinate seawater for drinking rather than depleting groundwater). You can get it as a byproduct of refining crude oil... but isn't that kinda negating one of the attractions?

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#3194739 - 11/22/13 11:35 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: BMWTurboDzl]
NateDN10 Online   content


Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 1405
Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Isn't this hydrogen fuel cells instead of hydrogen gas being burned in combustion chamber?


That's the easy and inefficient way. Fuel cells are more efficient, but also more expensive.


Edited by NateDN10 (11/22/13 11:36 AM)
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#3194743 - 11/22/13 11:41 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 8575
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
Toyota promised a Hydrogen fuell cell car for 2015. This is Hydrogen reaction (making but H-O-H "exhaust" waste) to produce electricity.


Edited by ARCOgraphite (11/22/13 11:43 AM)
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#3194768 - 11/22/13 12:11 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
Hyundai is suppose to come out with one for the 2014 model year.


Hyundai Becomes First Company to Mass Produce Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars

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#3194770 - 11/22/13 12:13 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33770
Loc: New Jersey
Nothing wrong with PEM fuel cells for vehicle applications, and many of the hydrogen storage issues are overblown.

The problem still is that making hydrogen is still inefficient. Electrolysis is inefficient, and so even if fed with free solar energy which has its own conversion efficiency problems. Reformation of liquid fuels makes a ton of sense, but start times and whatnot are challenges.

FCs dont have carnot efficiency issues, and the conversion efficiency of an FC can be roughly .7V/1.23V=57%, higher at lighter load. Far better than even the most advanced diesels, if the hydrogen production efficiencies can be kept high.

Cost, commercial adopters, and need for energy storage are some of the challenges that make it tough to adapt.

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#3194771 - 11/22/13 12:14 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
One of the problems with windmills is what to do with the power when it's not needed. I think this would work well with some H2 production.

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#3194783 - 11/22/13 12:28 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
rshaw125 Offline


Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 2520
Loc: Raleigh ,NC CSA
Home refueling.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/home-energy-station.aspx

The infrastructure is already there. If you have gas line to your house.
Combine this with some solar panels.
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#3194823 - 11/22/13 01:03 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
A_Harman Online   content


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4265
Loc: Michigan
There is another form of Hydrogen that is being considered for use as a fuel: anhydrous ammonia (NH3). Its main advantage is that it is stored as a liquid (moderately pressurized like LPG) on the vehicle, so the main problem of gaseous storage of high-pressure H2 is avoided. Just do an Internet search using "ammonia fueled engines", and you can read up on it.


Edited by A_Harman (11/22/13 01:08 PM)
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#3194837 - 11/22/13 01:15 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
No way would I want to be riding around with anhydrous ammonia. You get a leak and you could not get out of the car fast enough.

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#3194838 - 11/22/13 01:15 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: sdowney717]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2653
Loc: Upper Midwest
What pressures are you talking about? If it has a tank of compressed hydrogen then it will just stay that way like any tank. Are you talking about producing hydrogen gas onboard by some process? What process?

Originally Posted By: sdowney717
Car still must have a source of hydrogen in a tank.
Where does the hydrogen go when the car is sitting and the pressures build up?
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#3194840 - 11/22/13 01:18 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: A_Harman]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2653
Loc: Upper Midwest
That would be an even more inefficient method of production.

But come on - tanks of liquified ammonia driving around? Imagine a breach during an accident at a crowded intersection. People would be dead all over.

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
There is another form of Hydrogen that is being considered for use as a fuel: anhydrous ammonia (NH3). Its main advantage is that it is stored as a liquid (moderately pressurized like LPG) on the vehicle, so the main problem of gaseous storage of high-pressure H2 is avoided. Just do an Internet search using "ammonia fueled engines", and you can read up on it.
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#3194853 - 11/22/13 01:35 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
All the crack heads would be stealing the NH4 for their cracker factories.

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#3194864 - 11/22/13 01:40 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: kschachn]
JTK Offline


Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 7300
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
What pressures are you talking about? If it has a tank of compressed hydrogen then it will just stay that way like any tank.


Exactly.

The molecules aren't any better than helium in regards to being escape artists.

If you're talking a liquid H2 storage tank, those are vacuum insulated, and often with an insulation wrapping or 'blown-in' (micro-cell) in the annular space.

Those will hold the liquid and gas off very little. Still would be an issue onboard a vehicle.
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#3195041 - 11/22/13 05:21 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
One of the problems with windmills is what to do with the power when it's not needed. I think this would work well with some H2 production.


That's when you turn the coal power stations down to minimum load.

I sort of partly agree with you, as a few years ago in Oz, the wholesale prices were going negative overnight. I wrote an internal discussion paper about using the -ve priced electricity (they would pay you to use it), make hydrogen, and pump it into the NG main for our gas turbines for use later.

Hopelessly inefficient, cycle wise, but if you are paying tens of grand an hour to keep the units at min load, you at least get something back

Got laughed at...then last year, India started augmenting their NG with hydrogen, as it's easier to pump it into an existing gas pipeline than run feeders.

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#3195044 - 11/22/13 05:24 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: sdowney717]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: sdowney717
If it is a tank of hydrogen, then it has to gas off to relive pressure.
So in a week or so a full tank is empty.


For liquid storage you have to offgas to maintain the temperatures. gaseous, 3000psi doesn't give you much energy density for a big heavy tank.

In the 80s, NiMH storage systems were going to be big. Toyo Kogoyo were heavily into hydrogen, as the octane requirements of the wankel were very suited to burning hydrogen.

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#3195048 - 11/22/13 05:27 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: A_Harman]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
There is another form of Hydrogen that is being considered for use as a fuel: anhydrous ammonia (NH3). Its main advantage is that it is stored as a liquid (moderately pressurized like LPG) on the vehicle, so the main problem of gaseous storage of high-pressure H2 is avoided. Just do an Internet search using "ammonia fueled engines", and you can read up on it.


Anhydrous ammonia is being phased out industrially where it can due to the safety of the stuff...automobiles missed the boat on that one (thankfully).

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#3195055 - 11/22/13 05:40 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
One of the problems with windmills is what to do with the power when it's not needed. I think this would work well with some H2 production.


That's when you turn the coal power stations down to minimum load.

I sort of partly agree with you, as a few years ago in Oz, the wholesale prices were going negative overnight. I wrote an internal discussion paper about using the -ve priced electricity (they would pay you to use it), make hydrogen, and pump it into the NG main for our gas turbines for use later.

Hopelessly inefficient, cycle wise, but if you are paying tens of grand an hour to keep the units at min load, you at least get something back

Got laughed at...then last year, India started augmenting their NG with hydrogen, as it's easier to pump it into an existing gas pipeline than run feeders.


Around me they are closing down the coal generators, at least most of them. There a quite a few nukes here in Illinois though.

Downstate they just went on line the cleanest and most efficient coal plant in the world.

THE FUTURE OF ENERGY

There also are 1000s of windmils as well as the nukes.

Here is the LaSalle nuke plant in Illinois, it's surrounded by windmills.




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#3195098 - 11/22/13 06:28 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
GFC cut the heart out of electricity, dropping peak load in Oz by 40%...Solar and wind had an impact, but nothing like the GFC.

Stimulus TVs were LCD, dropping a couple hundred watts of power consumption, and another 100 watts of cooling in many houses.

For scale in the pic, those wind turbines combined wouldn't drive a feed pump in the power station...

As to the most efficient coal station in the world, I doubt it...the advertised technologies are 60s stuff.

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#3195266 - 11/22/13 09:41 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Shannow
GFC cut the heart out of electricity, dropping peak load in Oz by 40%...Solar and wind had an impact, but nothing like the GFC.

Stimulus TVs were LCD, dropping a couple hundred watts of power consumption, and another 100 watts of cooling in many houses.

For scale in the pic, those wind turbines combined wouldn't drive a feed pump in the power station...

As to the most efficient coal station in the world, I doubt it...the advertised technologies are 60s stuff.


Nonsense.

There are a couple hundred 1.5MW wind turbines there. And the coal generator is over 92% efficient. Coal mine is on site so no transportation cost.

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#3195271 - 11/22/13 09:50 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
92% ?

I'll see your nonsense, and raise absolute bollocks...

Where on earth did you even get the concept that the coal generator could be over. 50 ?

Show me the source and I'll call them a liar
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#3195276 - 11/22/13 09:56 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
I went on a tour of this plant last month. My power coop is an 8% partner in the plant.

The exhaust is only water and CO2. Puts out 877 gross Mwh and runs at around 93% efficiency, putting out 809 Mwh per generator. There are two generators but one was down for scheduled maintenance.

You can go here for more but you have to register. 50% indeed. They shut down at least 5 plants in Illinois that were in that range last year.

https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=126116&highlight=coal+generator

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#3195285 - 11/22/13 10:08 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
You need to do some reading on thermal power cycles.

92 could be the turbine/ generator efficiency, but there will be 1200mw each unit lost to the cooling system

Efficiency will be less than 50

And no power station that they are closing down will be anywhere near 50...ever

Google 'high efficiency coal china' and you can see what can be done... And it's not 90%

Google 'Carnot efficiency' and you can find out why.

Just had a thought .. Do you have district heating ?
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#3195287 - 11/22/13 10:12 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
Did you not look at the original link? And google coal plants shut down in Illinois last year.

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#3195347 - 11/23/13 12:52 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Yeah, I looked that the link before I posted.

They don't list the efficiency at 92%, and nor would they as it's not true.

They DO say 1600MW of energy, and they DO say 7M tonnes of coal.

which is 50.5GJ of sent out energy...100% capacity factor, and no outage rates (as you said, one was out when you visited, so these are VERY VERY generous estimates, given that outage factors of 5% and capacity factors in the low 90s are pretty good).

The coal is apparently high sulfur, and looks from the aereals to be underground, so it's black, and of decent specific energy, I'll pick 20MJ/Kg, as 7M tons is pretty on the high end for an 1,600MW power station...6.3M Tonnes in S.I.

That makes a fuel input of 126GJ...

Efficiency is energy output divided by energy input, or 50.5/126, which equals 40.08%, which is what I would have expected for a modern plant based on '60s technology.

After typing, went looking for the coal source, and found that the Lively Grove Coal mine is part of the Herrin 6 coal seam,, and has an average energy of 11.170 btu/lb (makes 25.964 MJ/Kg...really a high value coal, 'cept for the sulfur)

http://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/p1625d/508/Chapter_E_508.pdf

That makes the efficiency worse...

It's NOT 92% efficient, CANNOT BE 92% efficient, and no coal fired power station that you can ever imagine CAN be 92% efficient...ever...It's NOT the most efficient power station in the world, it's modern middling.





Where does the 92% come from ?

I think they are claiming that they use 8% of the generated load in house, which internationally is a pretty high number. But we can analyse that

Each operating 800MW unit will have 20MW (roughly) of pumps in the feedwater process (thus my earlier statement about the number of wind turbines to drive pumps), and having ESP particulate removal, draft plant will be light on, and probably be 10MW or thereabouts...Cooling towers have 24 stacks per productive unit, about 500hp each (say 12MW)...we've accounted for 42MW of the 69MW auxiliary power. I would expect maybe another 4-5 depending on the water treatment processes involved.

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#3195439 - 11/23/13 07:52 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Yeah, I looked that the link before I posted.

They don't list the efficiency at 92%, and nor would they as it's not true.

They DO say 1600MW of energy, and they DO say 7M tonnes of coal.

which is 50.5GJ of sent out energy...100% capacity factor, and no outage rates (as you said, one was out when you visited, so these are VERY VERY generous estimates, given that outage factors of 5% and capacity factors in the low 90s are pretty good).

The coal is apparently high sulfur, and looks from the aereals to be underground, so it's black, and of decent specific energy, I'll pick 20MJ/Kg, as 7M tons is pretty on the high end for an 1,600MW power station...6.3M Tonnes in S.I.

That makes a fuel input of 126GJ...

Efficiency is energy output divided by energy input, or 50.5/126, which equals 40.08%, which is what I would have expected for a modern plant based on '60s technology.

After typing, went looking for the coal source, and found that the Lively Grove Coal mine is part of the Herrin 6 coal seam,, and has an average energy of 11.170 btu/lb (makes 25.964 MJ/Kg...really a high value coal, 'cept for the sulfur)

http://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/p1625d/508/Chapter_E_508.pdf

That makes the efficiency worse...

It's NOT 92% efficient, CANNOT BE 92% efficient, and no coal fired power station that you can ever imagine CAN be 92% efficient...ever...It's NOT the most efficient power station in the world, it's modern middling.





Where does the 92% come from ?

I think they are claiming that they use 8% of the generated load in house, which internationally is a pretty high number. But we can analyse that

Each operating 800MW unit will have 20MW (roughly) of pumps in the feedwater process (thus my earlier statement about the number of wind turbines to drive pumps), and having ESP particulate removal, draft plant will be light on, and probably be 10MW or thereabouts...Cooling towers have 24 stacks per productive unit, about 500hp each (say 12MW)...we've accounted for 42MW of the 69MW auxiliary power. I would expect maybe another 4-5 depending on the water treatment processes involved.



Very interesting.

But I would think having the coal mine on site improves things. And the windmills were around the LaSalle nuke plant.

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#3195570 - 11/23/13 10:13 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26355
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: SHOZ

Around me they are closing down the coal generators, at least most of them. There a quite a few nukes here in Illinois though.

Downstate they just went on line the cleanest and most efficient coal plant in the world.

THE FUTURE OF ENERGY

There also are 1000s of windmils as well as the nukes.

Here is the LaSalle nuke plant in Illinois, it's surrounded by windmills.




I'm amazed they'd build a new coal plant. Here in Ontario we appear to be just upgrading our Nuke plants shrug

For example, that coal plant is 1600MW correct? And the LaSalle nuke plant is 2400.

The closest reactor to me is Darlington, which is currently 3,512MW, but may potentially be upgraded (depending on whether the government lets OPG build) by another 4,800MW, giving a total installed capacity of 8,312MW and making it the most powerful nuke plant in the world.

Then there is Pickering at 3,100MW just a few Km away from Darlington.

Then there is Bruce Power, our largest site at 6,300MW.

Bruce and Darlington if upgraded could provide more than enough power for the entire province.
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#3195597 - 11/23/13 10:40 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
I've got 4 nukes within 100 miles of me. No more please.

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#3195612 - 11/23/13 10:58 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Spazdog Offline


Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 5492
Loc: Arlington
The problem I see is that the hydrogen is still being produced from natural gas. Why not just use natural gas?

Instead of just converting a gasoline engine to run on natural gas, take advantage of the LNG's extremely high octane and extremely low carbon deposits. LNG does have a lower BTU content than gasoline so design accordingly.

I'm not certain why range would be a problem if you manufacture it with the ability to accept propane from RV parks. Why not manufacture in the ability to accept a supplemental 20lb Propane tank? You could pick that up at countless stores along the way to allow you to get to the next refill station.
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#3195920 - 11/23/13 06:10 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Very interesting.

But I would think having the coal mine on site improves things. And the windmills were around the LaSalle nuke plant.


I factored in no transport for the coal...and my reference originally was to the feed pumps in the nuclear plant, which you declared nonsense.

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#3195932 - 11/23/13 06:29 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2653
Loc: Upper Midwest
Why, are they bad neighbors?

Back in the day I worked for Commonwealth Edison (who later sold the generating facilities to Exelon). I was in both the LaSalle and the Braidwood plants while they were under construction. Do you think they are unsafe?

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I've got 4 nukes within 100 miles of me. No more please.
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#3195942 - 11/23/13 06:35 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: OVERKILL]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2653
Loc: Upper Midwest
Wow those are huge capacities. I read that upgrade to the Darlington plant would add up to four new reactors. There are very few single plants here in the US with three reactors, none with four AFAIK.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'm amazed they'd build a new coal plant. Here in Ontario we appear to be just upgrading our Nuke plants shrug

For example, that coal plant is 1600MW correct? And the LaSalle nuke plant is 2400.

The closest reactor to me is Darlington, which is currently 3,512MW, but may potentially be upgraded (depending on whether the government lets OPG build) by another 4,800MW, giving a total installed capacity of 8,312MW and making it the most powerful nuke plant in the world.

Then there is Pickering at 3,100MW just a few Km away from Darlington.

Then there is Bruce Power, our largest site at 6,300MW.

Bruce and Darlington if upgraded could provide more than enough power for the entire province.
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#3196020 - 11/23/13 08:07 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: kschachn]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Why, are they bad neighbors?

Back in the day I worked for Commonwealth Edison (who later sold the generating facilities to Exelon). I was in both the LaSalle and the Braidwood plants while they were under construction. Do you think they are unsafe?

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I've got 4 nukes within 100 miles of me. No more please.


Braidwood leaked radioactive water for years and never told anyone. And as long as they store the spent fuel on site yes I think they are unsafe.

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#3196621 - 11/24/13 12:36 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: kschachn]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26355
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Wow those are huge capacities. I read that upgrade to the Darlington plant would add up to four new reactors. There are very few single plants here in the US with three reactors, none with four AFAIK.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'm amazed they'd build a new coal plant. Here in Ontario we appear to be just upgrading our Nuke plants shrug

For example, that coal plant is 1600MW correct? And the LaSalle nuke plant is 2400.

The closest reactor to me is Darlington, which is currently 3,512MW, but may potentially be upgraded (depending on whether the government lets OPG build) by another 4,800MW, giving a total installed capacity of 8,312MW and making it the most powerful nuke plant in the world.

Then there is Pickering at 3,100MW just a few Km away from Darlington.

Then there is Bruce Power, our largest site at 6,300MW.

Bruce and Darlington if upgraded could provide more than enough power for the entire province.


Yes, Ontario is pretty big into our Candu reactors.

Darlington currently has 4 units on-line, and yes, the upgrade was to add another 4.

Bruce currently has, between Bruce A and B, 8 units on-line to yield the capacity noted.

The units at Darlington are higher output than the ones at Bruce. The new ones as per the upgrade plan, would be 1200MW/each.
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#3196634 - 11/24/13 12:47 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
What do they do with the waste from the reactors in Canada?

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#3196660 - 11/24/13 01:14 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26355
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
What do they do with the waste from the reactors in Canada?


Currently:

http://www.opg.com/power/nuclear/waste/facilities.asp

But this is the future:

http://www.opg.com/power/nuclear/waste/dgr/
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#3197258 - 11/25/13 07:05 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Spazdog]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33770
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
The problem I see is that the hydrogen is still being produced from natural gas. Why not just use natural gas?


Because the electrochemical conversion is far less lossy and thus yields a much higher net efficiency in the LHVin/Power out efficiency ratio then regular IC diesel/gasoline/GT conversions. Recuperated plants can do pretty well but have their own issues if not base loaded.

Further, the low temps and lack of combustion make for no NOx or other pollution. Sulfur must be removed in advance.

Add to the benefit that methane is generally reformed in steam, and the CO product can be shifted with more steam to yield extra moles of H2.

The problem? steam reforming is endothermic, so not practical to use stand alone.

Recuperating an NG electric plant or GT would be a good idea. Pull that waste heat to raise steam like a bottoming cycle, but then feed the steam to do SMR.

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#3197703 - 11/25/13 01:13 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15095
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I've got 4 nukes within 100 miles of me. No more please.


My wife's family grew up eating fish from the area around the Crystal River Nuclear plant in Florida. Is it a coincidence that she required treatment for mercury contamination?

Every time I drive by a Nuke plant I imagine it being built by the lowest bidder...
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#3198019 - 11/25/13 06:21 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SteveSRT8]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11590
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
My wife's family grew up eating fish from the area around the Crystal River Nuclear plant in Florida. Is it a coincidence that she required treatment for mercury contamination?

Hard to say - we've had mercury warnings with respect to fish consumption in various parts of the province for years, and we haev no such power plants. Many of the warnings are here down south, too, where there is no uranium mining (which one could use an something "related" to the issue in northern Saskatchewan).
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#3199314 - 11/27/13 02:47 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
I'm not sure on the link between mercury and nukes...

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#3199472 - 11/27/13 08:44 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
wvrailroader Offline


Registered: 07/16/09
Posts: 80
Loc: West Virginia
Coal fired power plants generate a fair amount of mercury themselves. Could the mercury problem in Crystal River been caused by the coal fired units there?


Edited by wvrailroader (11/27/13 08:51 AM)

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#3200690 - 11/28/13 03:56 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: wvrailroader]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11590
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Bingo, we have a load of coal plants in southern Saskatchewan, and mercury problems in that part of the province, too.
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#3200771 - 11/28/13 06:30 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Garak]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2653
Loc: Upper Midwest
Yeah, I don't know where mercury would come out of a nuclear plant.

Originally Posted By: Garak
Bingo, we have a load of coal plants in southern Saskatchewan, and mercury problems in that part of the province, too.
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#3200827 - 11/28/13 08:14 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
If it's coal pwer, they are ding something wrong...yes, coal has mercury, but we don't see it in rivers or fish around here.

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#3200854 - 11/28/13 09:13 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11590
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I was just speculating, Shannow. I don't know if it is from the coal plants or something else at all. There's been a long standing mercury issue in the fish in this part of the province, and we've had coal plants here forever. Maybe they're old plants. Maybe it's the climate. Maybe they're doing something wrong. Maybe it's something else altogether. I honestly have no idea, and really didn't look into it much. We don't have much here beyond agriculture and coal power, so I don't know where it's coming from. wink

There are a couple mercury warnings in the north part of the province, but that is, notably, only in the coldest waters and the longest lived, slowest growing fish, and the warnings allude to the life span and temperatures.
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#3200893 - 11/28/13 10:41 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Not saying that it's not the coal power...there is mercury in the stuff for sure...I just know what we do, and what's not a problem, and has me scratching.

Fish at the top of the food chain accumulates the stuff...when I lived in Adelaide, shark was only available at the fish and chip shops on Fridays to limit community exposure to mercury.

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#3200982 - 11/29/13 05:53 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15095
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'm not sure on the link between mercury and nukes...


Neither are we.

But as already stated they burnt a LOT of coal there as this plant had a lot of problems. And still does...
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#3200983 - 11/29/13 06:03 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
Gold mining is the greatest source of mercury pollution but coal is the second largest. Mercury also once it is in the food chain will just keep on going up the food ladder.

Mercury in the Environment

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#3201380 - 11/29/13 05:02 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SteveSRT8]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26774
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'm not sure on the link between mercury and nukes...


Neither are we.

But as already stated they burnt a LOT of coal there as this plant had a lot of problems. And still does...


I was getting confused...

thanks to wiki Crystal River is 4 coal fired power stations and 1 nuke on the same campus.

Looking at Google Maps 2858′N 8242′W , the coal stockpile drainage appears to be directly into the cooling water intake canal, which is straight back into the river...

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#3201401 - 11/29/13 05:29 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11590
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Fish at the top of the food chain accumulates the stuff...when I lived in Adelaide, shark was only available at the fish and chip shops on Fridays to limit community exposure to mercury.

I remember reading about the issue with sharks, too, notably because of its position on the food chain. With reference to SHOZ's comments, we don't have much gold mining in this province. We have some now, but it essentially didn't exist when the mercury issue was really publicized. There is a lot of coal power here, and I suspect some of the infrastructure is rather dated.
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#3201408 - 11/29/13 05:34 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Online   shocked


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Illinois
In the Chicago area they shut down 4 coal plants this year due to the emissions. Unless those plants have new scrubbers and other environmental controls they are gross polluters.

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#3201672 - 11/29/13 10:00 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11590
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I'm going to guess that only one of our plants is even remotely new. wink
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