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#3195347 - 11/23/13 12:52 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27047
Loc: a prison island
Yeah, I looked that the link before I posted.

They don't list the efficiency at 92%, and nor would they as it's not true.

They DO say 1600MW of energy, and they DO say 7M tonnes of coal.

which is 50.5GJ of sent out energy...100% capacity factor, and no outage rates (as you said, one was out when you visited, so these are VERY VERY generous estimates, given that outage factors of 5% and capacity factors in the low 90s are pretty good).

The coal is apparently high sulfur, and looks from the aereals to be underground, so it's black, and of decent specific energy, I'll pick 20MJ/Kg, as 7M tons is pretty on the high end for an 1,600MW power station...6.3M Tonnes in S.I.

That makes a fuel input of 126GJ...

Efficiency is energy output divided by energy input, or 50.5/126, which equals 40.08%, which is what I would have expected for a modern plant based on '60s technology.

After typing, went looking for the coal source, and found that the Lively Grove Coal mine is part of the Herrin 6 coal seam,, and has an average energy of 11.170 btu/lb (makes 25.964 MJ/Kg...really a high value coal, 'cept for the sulfur)

http://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/p1625d/508/Chapter_E_508.pdf

That makes the efficiency worse...

It's NOT 92% efficient, CANNOT BE 92% efficient, and no coal fired power station that you can ever imagine CAN be 92% efficient...ever...It's NOT the most efficient power station in the world, it's modern middling.





Where does the 92% come from ?

I think they are claiming that they use 8% of the generated load in house, which internationally is a pretty high number. But we can analyse that

Each operating 800MW unit will have 20MW (roughly) of pumps in the feedwater process (thus my earlier statement about the number of wind turbines to drive pumps), and having ESP particulate removal, draft plant will be light on, and probably be 10MW or thereabouts...Cooling towers have 24 stacks per productive unit, about 500hp each (say 12MW)...we've accounted for 42MW of the 69MW auxiliary power. I would expect maybe another 4-5 depending on the water treatment processes involved.

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#3195439 - 11/23/13 07:52 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Shannow]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1853
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Yeah, I looked that the link before I posted.

They don't list the efficiency at 92%, and nor would they as it's not true.

They DO say 1600MW of energy, and they DO say 7M tonnes of coal.

which is 50.5GJ of sent out energy...100% capacity factor, and no outage rates (as you said, one was out when you visited, so these are VERY VERY generous estimates, given that outage factors of 5% and capacity factors in the low 90s are pretty good).

The coal is apparently high sulfur, and looks from the aereals to be underground, so it's black, and of decent specific energy, I'll pick 20MJ/Kg, as 7M tons is pretty on the high end for an 1,600MW power station...6.3M Tonnes in S.I.

That makes a fuel input of 126GJ...

Efficiency is energy output divided by energy input, or 50.5/126, which equals 40.08%, which is what I would have expected for a modern plant based on '60s technology.

After typing, went looking for the coal source, and found that the Lively Grove Coal mine is part of the Herrin 6 coal seam,, and has an average energy of 11.170 btu/lb (makes 25.964 MJ/Kg...really a high value coal, 'cept for the sulfur)

http://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/p1625d/508/Chapter_E_508.pdf

That makes the efficiency worse...

It's NOT 92% efficient, CANNOT BE 92% efficient, and no coal fired power station that you can ever imagine CAN be 92% efficient...ever...It's NOT the most efficient power station in the world, it's modern middling.





Where does the 92% come from ?

I think they are claiming that they use 8% of the generated load in house, which internationally is a pretty high number. But we can analyse that

Each operating 800MW unit will have 20MW (roughly) of pumps in the feedwater process (thus my earlier statement about the number of wind turbines to drive pumps), and having ESP particulate removal, draft plant will be light on, and probably be 10MW or thereabouts...Cooling towers have 24 stacks per productive unit, about 500hp each (say 12MW)...we've accounted for 42MW of the 69MW auxiliary power. I would expect maybe another 4-5 depending on the water treatment processes involved.



Very interesting.

But I would think having the coal mine on site improves things. And the windmills were around the LaSalle nuke plant.

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#3195570 - 11/23/13 10:13 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26677
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: SHOZ

Around me they are closing down the coal generators, at least most of them. There a quite a few nukes here in Illinois though.

Downstate they just went on line the cleanest and most efficient coal plant in the world.

THE FUTURE OF ENERGY

There also are 1000s of windmils as well as the nukes.

Here is the LaSalle nuke plant in Illinois, it's surrounded by windmills.




I'm amazed they'd build a new coal plant. Here in Ontario we appear to be just upgrading our Nuke plants shrug

For example, that coal plant is 1600MW correct? And the LaSalle nuke plant is 2400.

The closest reactor to me is Darlington, which is currently 3,512MW, but may potentially be upgraded (depending on whether the government lets OPG build) by another 4,800MW, giving a total installed capacity of 8,312MW and making it the most powerful nuke plant in the world.

Then there is Pickering at 3,100MW just a few Km away from Darlington.

Then there is Bruce Power, our largest site at 6,300MW.

Bruce and Darlington if upgraded could provide more than enough power for the entire province.
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#3195597 - 11/23/13 10:40 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1853
Loc: Illinois
I've got 4 nukes within 100 miles of me. No more please.

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#3195612 - 11/23/13 10:58 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
Spazdog Offline


Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 5492
Loc: Arlington
The problem I see is that the hydrogen is still being produced from natural gas. Why not just use natural gas?

Instead of just converting a gasoline engine to run on natural gas, take advantage of the LNG's extremely high octane and extremely low carbon deposits. LNG does have a lower BTU content than gasoline so design accordingly.

I'm not certain why range would be a problem if you manufacture it with the ability to accept propane from RV parks. Why not manufacture in the ability to accept a supplemental 20lb Propane tank? You could pick that up at countless stores along the way to allow you to get to the next refill station.
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#3195920 - 11/23/13 06:10 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27047
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Very interesting.

But I would think having the coal mine on site improves things. And the windmills were around the LaSalle nuke plant.


I factored in no transport for the coal...and my reference originally was to the feed pumps in the nuclear plant, which you declared nonsense.

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#3195932 - 11/23/13 06:29 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2727
Loc: Upper Midwest
Why, are they bad neighbors?

Back in the day I worked for Commonwealth Edison (who later sold the generating facilities to Exelon). I was in both the LaSalle and the Braidwood plants while they were under construction. Do you think they are unsafe?

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I've got 4 nukes within 100 miles of me. No more please.
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#3195942 - 11/23/13 06:35 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: OVERKILL]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2727
Loc: Upper Midwest
Wow those are huge capacities. I read that upgrade to the Darlington plant would add up to four new reactors. There are very few single plants here in the US with three reactors, none with four AFAIK.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'm amazed they'd build a new coal plant. Here in Ontario we appear to be just upgrading our Nuke plants shrug

For example, that coal plant is 1600MW correct? And the LaSalle nuke plant is 2400.

The closest reactor to me is Darlington, which is currently 3,512MW, but may potentially be upgraded (depending on whether the government lets OPG build) by another 4,800MW, giving a total installed capacity of 8,312MW and making it the most powerful nuke plant in the world.

Then there is Pickering at 3,100MW just a few Km away from Darlington.

Then there is Bruce Power, our largest site at 6,300MW.

Bruce and Darlington if upgraded could provide more than enough power for the entire province.
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#3196020 - 11/23/13 08:07 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: kschachn]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1853
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Why, are they bad neighbors?

Back in the day I worked for Commonwealth Edison (who later sold the generating facilities to Exelon). I was in both the LaSalle and the Braidwood plants while they were under construction. Do you think they are unsafe?

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I've got 4 nukes within 100 miles of me. No more please.


Braidwood leaked radioactive water for years and never told anyone. And as long as they store the spent fuel on site yes I think they are unsafe.

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#3196621 - 11/24/13 12:36 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: kschachn]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26677
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Wow those are huge capacities. I read that upgrade to the Darlington plant would add up to four new reactors. There are very few single plants here in the US with three reactors, none with four AFAIK.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'm amazed they'd build a new coal plant. Here in Ontario we appear to be just upgrading our Nuke plants shrug

For example, that coal plant is 1600MW correct? And the LaSalle nuke plant is 2400.

The closest reactor to me is Darlington, which is currently 3,512MW, but may potentially be upgraded (depending on whether the government lets OPG build) by another 4,800MW, giving a total installed capacity of 8,312MW and making it the most powerful nuke plant in the world.

Then there is Pickering at 3,100MW just a few Km away from Darlington.

Then there is Bruce Power, our largest site at 6,300MW.

Bruce and Darlington if upgraded could provide more than enough power for the entire province.


Yes, Ontario is pretty big into our Candu reactors.

Darlington currently has 4 units on-line, and yes, the upgrade was to add another 4.

Bruce currently has, between Bruce A and B, 8 units on-line to yield the capacity noted.

The units at Darlington are higher output than the ones at Bruce. The new ones as per the upgrade plan, would be 1200MW/each.
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#3196634 - 11/24/13 12:47 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Tomcat_80]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1853
Loc: Illinois
What do they do with the waste from the reactors in Canada?

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#3196660 - 11/24/13 01:14 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26677
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
What do they do with the waste from the reactors in Canada?


Currently:

http://www.opg.com/power/nuclear/waste/facilities.asp

But this is the future:

http://www.opg.com/power/nuclear/waste/dgr/
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#3197258 - 11/25/13 07:05 AM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: Spazdog]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33950
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
The problem I see is that the hydrogen is still being produced from natural gas. Why not just use natural gas?


Because the electrochemical conversion is far less lossy and thus yields a much higher net efficiency in the LHVin/Power out efficiency ratio then regular IC diesel/gasoline/GT conversions. Recuperated plants can do pretty well but have their own issues if not base loaded.

Further, the low temps and lack of combustion make for no NOx or other pollution. Sulfur must be removed in advance.

Add to the benefit that methane is generally reformed in steam, and the CO product can be shifted with more steam to yield extra moles of H2.

The problem? steam reforming is endothermic, so not practical to use stand alone.

Recuperating an NG electric plant or GT would be a good idea. Pull that waste heat to raise steam like a bottoming cycle, but then feed the steam to do SMR.

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#3197703 - 11/25/13 01:13 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SHOZ]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15278
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I've got 4 nukes within 100 miles of me. No more please.


My wife's family grew up eating fish from the area around the Crystal River Nuclear plant in Florida. Is it a coincidence that she required treatment for mercury contamination?

Every time I drive by a Nuke plant I imagine it being built by the lowest bidder...
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#3198019 - 11/25/13 06:21 PM Re: Hydrogen powered cars? [Re: SteveSRT8]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
My wife's family grew up eating fish from the area around the Crystal River Nuclear plant in Florida. Is it a coincidence that she required treatment for mercury contamination?

Hard to say - we've had mercury warnings with respect to fish consumption in various parts of the province for years, and we haev no such power plants. Many of the warnings are here down south, too, where there is no uranium mining (which one could use an something "related" to the issue in northern Saskatchewan).
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