'06 Mini Cooper S - Napa Syn5w30 - 10,192 mi

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

I think that within the margin of error, a UOA will show whether any given grade is causing excessive wear.


It may. Though we've had cases where it hasn't.

Quote:

A UOA with particle counts would be even better and since it would only represent a one-time extra expense, it might be worth it to the OP just to assure himself that his engine really is wearing well on a non-complying oil.


Agreed.


Quote:
BMW probably recommends an LL-01 oil simply because they know without question that it will work and they don't intend to go to the expense of testing API SN oils, a standard which applies mainly to the North American market alone.
Doesn't mean that an API SN 5W-30 won't work well.
Just means that BMW doesn't have any evidence of whether it will or won't.
The OP has at least some evidence that it will and enough has been posted throughout this forum of the potential for using thinner oils in a variety of applications that there's really no reason to think that it wouldn't.


I'm sure that's part of BMW's reasoning. However they also have the LL-01 FE spec that denotes an oil of about the viscosity the OP is running. They could have chosen to spec that instead

My concern is that this being a forced induction application, there may be some solid reasoning behind the requirement of an oil with an HTHS >=3.5cP being spec'd.

 

[Bugzii]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Bugzii
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bugzii
The MINI specs ACEA A3/B3 & BMW LL-01, API SM, approved grades are 5w30 and 5w40. The easiest to find over-the-counter is Mobil 1 0w40. Why NAPA? Cheap... cheap... cheap...

Considering a jug of M1 0w-40 in WM in the States is cheaper than a jug of conventional 5w-30 in WM in Canada, you have no right to be cheap.

A quart of M1 5w30 runs $6.5-$7 locally while a quart of NAPA Syn is $3.5 when on sale. If I can get similar results, why pay more? Even my aunt in Toronto agrees with me.

But if you are basing that off a UOA, you don't REALLY know if you are getting similar results

I've torn down and rebuilt engines before and you're correct that UOA alone does not tell the whole story. Since this car is bone stock and rarely driven aggressively and taken to the track, I don't think using the exact MINI/BMW approved oils is all that big a deal. With the exception of my 944S that were sold with 126k, all my vehicles went beyond 200k by sticking with the appropriate API and grades (according to ambient temp). I've used M1 5w30, 10w30 and 0w40 in my VW 1.8T over 219k and they all show little difference in wear numbers over the long term.

Here's a pic of MINI's 5w30 spec.

 

[OVERKILL]

Thanks for the pic. I see it says ACEA A3/B3, which like LL-01, denotes an HTHS of >=3.5cP

If this was the N/A version of the motor I'd be less worried. But the forced induction and relatively small sump size (5.1 quarts, correct?) kinda freaks me out a bit

It's your car in the end, and this is certainly your decision; one you appear to be making knowing full well that the oil is thinner than spec'd. I'm just more curious as to your logic than anything else here, as M1 0w-40 (which is the right weight) is pretty inexpensive.

 

[Bugzii]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Well copper and lead could come down a touch unless they are normal wear parts in that engine? From the oil cooler?

Copper is odd for this engine. It's relatively high from all from other Mini Cooper S UOAs I've seen.

Here are some... http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=820926

At 7.5k oil / 35k motor...

At 25k oil / 251k motor...

 

[Bugzii]

Pix of the oil filter...

both sides...

Close-up...

 

[Bugzii]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Thanks for the pic. I see it says ACEA A3/B3, which like LL-01, denotes an HTHS of >=3.5cP

If this was the N/A version of the motor I'd be less worried. But the forced induction and relatively small sump size (5.1 quarts, correct?) kinda freaks me out a bit

It's your car in the end, and this is certainly your decision; one you appear to be making knowing full well that the oil is thinner than spec'd. I'm just more curious as to your logic than anything else here, as M1 0w-40 (which is the right weight) is pretty inexpensive.

Appreciate your concern...

I'll probably spend more money replacing other components before the motor gives out... ie. strut mounts, motor-mounts, LCA bushings, waterpump, EHPS, convertible top rubber mouldings and possibly the supercharger... most of them have been known to fail regularly on Mini Coopers. By 33k, I replaced 1 motor-mount, 2 LCA bushings, 1 thermostat housing and 1 convertible top moulding... luckily under warranty. Now at 52k I will need to replace 2 strut mounts, 1 convertible top rubber moulding and possibly a waterpump. As you can see, this is how German engineering works.

BMW/MINI engineers can do better by improving other components... http://www.motoringfile.com/section/recallscampaigns/

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
But if you are basing that off a UOA, you don't REALLY know if you are getting similar results

Maybe it's similar to BuickGNX's result. He had a very good UOA at one very inconvenient time, if I remember correctly.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Bugzii
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Thanks for the pic. I see it says ACEA A3/B3, which like LL-01, denotes an HTHS of >=3.5cP

If this was the N/A version of the motor I'd be less worried. But the forced induction and relatively small sump size (5.1 quarts, correct?) kinda freaks me out a bit

It's your car in the end, and this is certainly your decision; one you appear to be making knowing full well that the oil is thinner than spec'd. I'm just more curious as to your logic than anything else here, as M1 0w-40 (which is the right weight) is pretty inexpensive.

Appreciate your concern...

I'll probably spend more money replacing other components before the motor gives out... ie. strut mounts, motor-mounts, LCA bushings, waterpump, EHPS, convertible top rubber mouldings and possibly the supercharger... most of them have been known to fail regularly on Mini Coopers. By 33k, I replaced 1 motor-mount, 2 LCA bushings, 1 thermostat housing and 1 convertible top moulding... luckily under warranty. Now at 52k I will need to replace 2 strut mounts, 1 convertible top rubber moulding and possibly a waterpump. As you can see, this is how German engineering works.

BMW/MINI engineers can do better by improving other components... http://www.motoringfile.com/section/recallscampaigns/


I think it depends on the German car, LOL! The M5 has been pretty good in terms of maintenance costs. I've heard Mini's can be expensive to own though. And so can certain BMW's (particularly newer ones).

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
But if you are basing that off a UOA, you don't REALLY know if you are getting similar results

Maybe it's similar to BuickGNX's result. He had a very good UOA at one very inconvenient time, if I remember correctly.


Yeah, it was perfectly normal and the motor had lunched itself, LOL!

However, the filter the OP has posted looks really good for what that's worth

 

[fdcg27]

Right, and the death of that engine had nothing to do with the oil used.
Wear was fine.
Some of the parts weren't.
The same thing could happen as you drive your M5 to work tomorrow.
Won't happen with my BMW since I put it away for the winter today.
Could happen with whatever I drive tomorrow, though.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Right, and the death of that engine had nothing to do with the oil used.
Wear was fine.
Some of the parts weren't.


Definitely. His failure wasn't caused by tyhe oil used (and I wasn't implying otherwise). It simply wasn't picked up by the UOA's he was doing.

 

[fdcg27]

No UOA will pick up impending failures that you can't see in wear metals, just as no oil will prevent mechanical failure of any engine part.
Oils have a role in reducing wear.
Bad parts, or overstressed ones, will fail without regard to the oil used.
I wonder why this member's misfortune even made it into this thread?

 

[Garak]

That's the point I'm trying to make. We have people reading too much into UOAs. Using an out of spec oil isn't magically justified by running a UOA. There are many, many times that an out of spec oil can be used successfully. One or two UOAs in absence of anything else hardly validate such a choice, though.

At the very, very minimum, I'd be following CATERHAM's regular advice about checking oil pressure/temps versus specified minimums before going significantly lighter as a matter of course. Naturally, going lighter in a European engine doesn't mean the sky is falling. My old Audi 200 Turbo allowed for 5w-20 under appropriate temperatures. That doesn't mean it was appropriate under all combinations of temperatures and driving conditions.

 

[Bugzii]

Originally Posted By: Garak
At the very, very minimum, I'd be following CATERHAM's regular advice about checking oil pressure/temps versus specified minimums before going significantly lighter as a matter of course. Naturally, going lighter in a European engine doesn't mean the sky is falling. My old Audi 200 Turbo allowed for 5w-20 under appropriate temperatures. That doesn't mean it was appropriate under all combinations of temperatures and driving conditions.


Don't laugh but my MINI comes with Mickey Mouse engineered oil pressure & temp gauges.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Bugzii
Don't laugh but my MINI comes with Mickey Mouse engineered oil pressure & temp gauges.

Well, that's already better than 99% of the vehicles out there!

 

[wag123]

So, how much money did you spend on the UOA's? If it were me, instead of trying to save money by using the NAPA oil, I would put that money towards better oil and use M1 0W-40 in both of those cars. Having said that, it looks the NAPA oil did pretty darn good!

 

[Bugzii]

Originally Posted By: wag123
So, how much money did you spend on the UOA's? If it were me, instead of trying to save money by using the NAPA oil, I would put that money towards better oil and use M1 0W-40 in both of those cars. Having said that, it looks the NAPA oil did pretty darn good!

As I'm new to this engine, these UOAs are intended to satisfy my curiosity, be it manufacturer-spec Mobil 1 or non-spec NAPA Syn. It's a learning process and I would do the same if I was using M1 0w40. First, I wanted to know how these oils perform by the end of 10k. Second, to find out if MINI's Oil Life Monitoring is reliable?

As far as UOA results are concerned, they show little difference in wear rates at 10k. As for OLM, no I would not rely on algorithms designed by the geniuses at MINI and go to 19k as indicated by the car's Oil Service Indicator.

Side note: In 2012, MINI pulled back OCI on their Direct Injection engines to 10k/1yr from their previous 15k or more. These engines have been out since 2007. Anyone with 2-3 UOAs would know that these Direct Injection motors have serious fuel dilution and beat the c.r.a.p out of the oil. Yet it took MINI five years to change their policy.

http://www.motoringfile.com/2012/04/16/mini-shortens-oil-change-interval/

 

[bigt61]

On that 1st UOA for the Mini, you must have been using the high Calcium, low Magnesium version of M1 5W-30. That's tricky to find out here on the east coast.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Bugzii
As far as UOA results are concerned, they show little difference in wear rates at 10k.

While your plan of seeing how long the oil will last using UOAs is valid, differences in wear rates between two different oils cannot be determined by UOA.

 

[Bugzii]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bugzii
As far as UOA results are concerned, they show little difference in wear rates at 10k.

While your plan of seeing how long the oil will last using UOAs is valid, differences in wear rates between two different oils cannot be determined by UOA.

So how do you measure wear in your G37 motor with Mobi1 Delvac? Do you go tearing down your engine and measure the crankshaft bearings, camshaft lobes and cylinder walls down to the micron at every oil change?

The below UOA is from a Mini Cooper S that has had non-spec oil. It currently has more than 315,xxx miles.... and the only thing the owner has done - as far as internal inspection is concerned - is removing the valve cover at 190k.