Syntec 5W30 10800km, 11250km 05 Grand Caravan 3.3

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First time posting here but I would like to share my UOA results from our family's daily driver, a 2005 Dodge Grand Caravan SE Stow-N-Go with the 3.3L non-flex engine.

Code:


Lab Number TC7023 TK3272

Date 2/1/2013 10/26/2013

Unit 124800 136250

Oil 10800 11450

Type Syntec 5W30 Syntec 5W30

Tin 0 0

Lead 1 2

Copper 0.2 0.7

Aluminum 1 1

Silicon 45 18

Iron 12 10

Chromium 1 0.6

Silver 0 0

Zinc 800 724

Magnesium 950 1000

Nickel 0.7 0.8

Barium 0 0

Sodium 111 70

Calcum 1150 784

Vanadium 0 0

Phosphorus 615 533

Molybdenum 60 63

Boron 16 19

Manganese 0.9 0

Viscosity(D445)@100*C 10.02 9.263

Water(D4007) (%v/v) 0 0

Solids(D4007) (%v/v)
Glycol No No

Fuel Dilution No No

Oil Changed? Yes Yes


Comments from the lab are as follows

TC7023:
Tests indicate the need to CHANGE OIL & FILTER. Silicones (C).
Maintain routine sampling. ** Strange additive (B) **

TK3272:
Tests DO NOT indicate an immediate need for an oil change. Silicones (A).
These tests do not indicate any current problems. Maintain routine sampling.

The silicone is high on the first sample because I had just replaced the timing chain on this engine and that means the front cover and oil pan had been resealed (RTV was used on both as required). The strange additive they flagged was the sodium count.


Iron wear rates are a touch higher than I would like to see at nearly 1ppm/1000km, however this is our daily driver and is frequently driven around with 5 people in it and I am not gentle on the go pedal - it sees 5000RPM+ a couple times a day at least. Do you guys see anything out of the normal here? I feel like maybe the iron has been elevated because the engine got a new timing chain and timing gears, though I have nothing to back that up with.


I am doing UOA as I plan on running extended oil change intervals. I used to have a golf TDI that let me go over 32,000km between oil changes and UOA still indicated the oil was suitable for continued use. That car taught me that 5000km oil change intervals are ridiculous and made me curious about just what you can do. I didn't bother getting the TBN of the oil on these 2 samples as I was just using up the rest of my stock of castrol syntec before moving on to an oil that has a much higher starting TBN. Mostly I was just looking for a baseline for wear rates. I currently have the engine filled with Shell Rotella T6 as it has performed admirably in my track car, in my friend's rally-cross car and several other vehicles that see frequent abuse. I'll post up the next UOA when we get to 15,000km on that oil and I'll do the TBN at that time, however it will likely be 8 months before I have accumulated that much distance.

**EDIT**
Almost forgot - sampling was done by a local company here in Calgary, AB, Metro-Tech Systems. I don't know how they compare to the big outfits like Blackstone but they have been in business a mighty long time, are reasonably affordable (~$18/sample) and are local so I can drop the sample off and have results in 2 days or less.
 
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One problem is that the company did not give you a TBN. Your oci is not too aggressive, so it's probably fine. Get Tbn next time and drive farther!
 
I deliberately skipped TBN as it is a few extra dollars and I know it'll be good at such conservative mileages
 
Thats pretty early for a timing chain.Was it excessively loose? How did you know? Did the cam/crank sensors not allow the engine to run? How long did it take to change out?
 
The timing chain was slapping on the cover making a noticeable noise. When I removed the front cover I found it had about 3 times the allowable free play when aligned and measured in the middle (as specified in the FSM). Parts were ~$350 including a new chain and both new gears as well as new gaskets on almost everything in the way. Being an XZZ option code van I already had the updated front cover and didn't need to replace that as well. The total operation took about 14 hours in my garage, start-to-finish in one day but it was close to running into the next day. It would have been faster if I had a harmonic balancer puller and a better fitting gear puller for the crankshaft gear, I probably spent 4 hours fighting with just those 2 things. Plus some extra time to get the rear coolant lines apart so I could fully drain the cooling system (figured I should change the antifreeze at the same time) and at least an hour of fighting with the power steering pump and pulley to get it free from the front cover (it was not AT ALL like described in the FSM). I'd bet if I had to do it again with the right tools it could be done in under 8 hours.

There was no performance problem and I notice no difference in how the van drives after the change, I was hoping for a small power increase from having less free play in the chain (and having everything properly in time again) but if there is a change it is imperceptible.

Mileage on the van when it was replaced was 114,100km, it had been slapping since we bought the van at 110,950km, and probably for a while before that. At least the only noise I hear now are the lifters, which although them clacking away is probably not a good thing they don't seem to be in dire need of replacement or indicating an imminent failure. Given that it requires removing both cylinder heads to replace them I think they can clack for a while longer, maybe forever.
 
Looks pretty darn good. Syntec add packs a a bit different in each sample but then again Castrol "tweaks" their add pack and baseoil ratios quite often.


Welcome to BITOG.
 
Time for an update on this. It has now been about 1 year since I put in the rotella, and in that time the van has covered 13345km in 404.5 hours of driving in just over 10 months, including a full winter of very cold starts. I figured with some bad weather coming it was better to change the oil now rather than wait until 15000km.

At the beginning of the oil change interval I put in a full 5L jug of Rotella T6. I use an oversized oil filter so that does take up a bit of the extra volume but that leaves it at ~0.25L over. I know it will consume a small amount of oil over the change interval so that doesn't bother me any. No makeup oil has been added during the this oil change, and after draining the sump and emptying the filter out I got ~4.1L back out (although some does remain in the filter).

Here are the results:

Code:


Lab Number TC7023 TK3272 UI3688

Date 2/1/2013 10/26/2013 09/04/2014

Unit 124800 136250 149595

Oil 10800 11450 13345

Type Syntec 5W30 Syntec 5W30 Rotella T6 5W40

Tin 0 0 0

Lead 1 2 1

Copper 0.2 0.7 0.6

Aluminum 1 1 1

Silicon 45 18 21

Iron 12 10 18

Chromium 1 0.6 1

Silver 0 0 0

Zinc 800 724 1300

Magnesium 950 1000 1200

Nickel 0.7 0.8 0

Barium 0 0 0

Sodium 111 70 24

Calcum 1150 784 883

Vanadium 0 0 0

Phosphorus 615 533 1000

Molybdenum 60 63 77

Boron 16 19 19

Manganese 0.9 0 0.8

Viscosity(D445)@100*C 10.02 9.263 15.16

Water(D4007) (%v/v) 0 0 0

Solids(D4007) (%v/v)
Glycol No No No

Fuel Dilution No No No

Oil Changed? Yes Yes Yes


Tests DO NOT indicate an immediate need for an oil change. Silicones (B).
These tests do not indicate any current problems. Maintain routine sampling


They feel the silicone level is slightly elevated, enough to watch but not to be concerned about. I am thinking perhaps the air filter is not doing as great of a job as I wanted. It had a wix paper filter in there for all 3 of the above samples. It was pretty dirty at this oil change so I swapped it with a mann filter, we'll see if that changes anything. Other than that this engine is holding up great. It still gets run full throttle over 5000RPM at least once a day. I thought I was going to be pulling the heads this summer since the rear head gasket developed an external leak but after watching it seep and smell of coolant for about 4 months while I contemplated selling the van rather than pulling the heads it seems to have stopped all on it's own. If (more like WHEN) it starts leaking again I have decided I will change the gaskets and while I'm in there I'll swap out those noisy lifters.

I know it's unscientific to keep switching oils like this but it seems the rotella got slightly worse mileage and the oil fill cap specifies 5W20 so I tried swapping to a 5W20 oil this time - Pennzoil Platinum (the new "from natural gas" one). I'll be watching to see if the mileage improves at all but early indications are good, the first thing we did after the oil change was a 330km highway trip then finished that tank in the city, it returned 11.6L/100km which is a record for this van, even on all highway trips we've never gotten below 11.8.
 
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Time for a quick update again - just had analysis done after changing my oil and I'm not super impressed. I have just returned my highest wear rate for iron and aluminum. Driving cycle and mileage was very similar to the previous oil change and yet the wear rates increased. Since I didn't have the results at the time of the oil change I have put in Mobil 1 0W20 as a final science experiment to see if the perceived improved mileage is amplified with a thinner oil and whether it causes a further spike in wear metals. Given that the rate of accumulation of wear metals is still very low I think it's perfectly safe to go ahead and give the 0W20 at least 10,000km - however it is worth noting that unlike my previous oil changes this came in a 4.4L bottle so this oil change is starting with 0.6L less oil.

Also interesting - changing the air filter did not effect the levels of silicon in the oil. I wonder what is causing that?

Code:


Lab Number TC7023 TK3272 UI3688 VG5932

Date 2/1/2013 10/26/2013 09/04/2014 07/17/2015

Unit 124800 136250 149595 162321

Oil 10800 11450 13345 12726

Type Syntec 5W30 Syntec 5W30 Rotella T6 5W40 Pennzoil 5W20

Tin 0 0 0 0

Lead 1 2 1 1

Copper 0.2 0.7 0.6 0.6

Aluminum 1 1 1 4

Silicon 45 18 21 22

Iron 12 10 18 19

Chromium 1 0.6 1 0.9

Silver 0 0 0 0

Zinc 800 724 1300 1000

Magnesium 950 1000 1200 206

Nickel 0.7 0.8 0 1

Barium 0 0 0 0

Sodium 111 70 24 3

Calcum 1150 784 883 2000+

Vanadium 0 0 0 0

Phosphorus 615 533 1000 757

Molybdenum 60 63 77 63

Boron 16 19 19 42

Manganese 0.9 0 0.8 0.9

Viscosity(D445)@100*C 10.02 9.263 15.16 9.834

Water(D4007) (%v/v) 0 0 0 0

Solids(D4007) (%v/v)
Glycol No No No No

Fuel Dilution No No No No

Oil Changed? Yes Yes Yes Yes


Their comments on this sample are:
VG5932 - Tests DO NOT indicate an immediate need for an oil change. Silicones (B).
Send in New Oil for Reference. Maintain routine sampling.
 
Another update - I haven't posted in a while so there's a couple new results on here. Looks like the van continues to wear normally and it really likes the Castrol Edge 5W30

Code


Lab Number TC7023 TK3272 UI3688 VG5932 WJ8251 XH6809 YJ2917 ZL5998

Date 2/1/2013 10/26/2013 09/04/2014 07/17/2015 08/22/2016 08/10/2017 09/23/2018 11/10/2019

Unit 124800 136250 149595 162321 176515 190708 204822 215589

Oil 10800 11450 13345 12726 14194 14193 14114 10767

Type Syntec 5W30 Syntec 5W30 Rotella T6 5W40 Pennzoil 5W20 Mobil 1 0W20 Castrol Edge 5W30 Castrol Edge 5W30 Castrol Edge 5W30

Tin 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Lead 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1

Copper 0.2 0.7 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.3 0.5 0.4

Aluminum 1 1 1 4 3 4 4 4

Silicon 45 18 21 22 18 56 29 12

Iron 12 10 18 19 28 17 22 15

Chromium 1 0.6 1 0.9 1 0.6 0.7 0.8

Silver 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Zinc 800 724 1300 1000 721 768 781 823

Magnesium 950 1000 1200 206 693 152 226 1253

Nickel 0.7 0.8 0 1 1 1 1 1

Barium 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Sodium 111 70 24 3 23 16 17 18

Calcum 1150 784 883 2000+ 1150 1900 2000 819

Vanadium 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Phosphorus 615 533 1000 757 602 634 608 644

Molybdenum 60 63 77 63 76 73 60 73

Boron 16 19 19 43 34 111 21 28

Manganese 0.9 0 0.8 0.9 0.8 0.7 0.8 0.9

Viscosity(D445)@100*C 10.02 9.263 15.16 9.834 8.299 11.63 11.21 11.13

Water(D4007) (%v/v) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Solids(D4007) (%v/v)
Glycol No No No No No No No No

Fuel Dilution No No No No No No No No

Oil Changed? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
 
I was interested in your test results as I have a 2006 with the same engine you have. Like you, I would consider 5000 km oil changes a waste and want to run the oil longer if possible. However I must confess the wear numbers from your oil samples mean little to me. Do you have a recommendation for me based on your expreience?
 
My opinion is that the wear numbers I'm seeing on every single one of these samples are perfectly acceptable to me. I had high Silicon in a couple samples (TC7023, XH6809) due to some engine work (new gaskets / gasket sealer) so those were nothing to worry about.

For me I am just doing annual-ish changes, I change the oil in the van every second time I change the oil in my car. I am perfectly comfortable up to 15,000km per change interval and given the chance I'd run it to 20,000km, maybe even 25,000km, but I'd want to do some samples with TBN on them before going over 20,000km. If my driving amount increases I am going to do a sample with TBN and see.

At 15,000km the oil has plenty of additives left and should be nowhere near depleting the TBN so I'd say my recommendation would be that you should do 15,000km change intervals. If you're worried about it then you should take a sample at 10,000km and post the results here to see how it's shaping up, but don't bother draining it out until you get the results because it's probably fine to 15,000km. I'd be absolutely shocked if you could wear out oil in any less than 10,000km.
 
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