I think the factory-fill oil for the Accord is Mobil Drive Clean 5w-20. If that's right it has a pour point of -30*C.
Amsoil Filter Failure
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What are those yellow particles? hmm!
Not disagreeing with you that Honda probably has a very clean assembly environment, but your engine will probably continue to break-in until 7,500 to 10,000 miles. Mine felt like it was improving (power-wise) to about 20,000 miles.
Who knows, maybe the Honda's break-in material is a lot smaller and is trapped in the filter media?
As for the factory fill, yes, most people say it's made by Mobil, but it's a special formulation different from the stuff you can buy off the shelf.
Jason
Not disagreeing with you that Honda probably has a very clean assembly environment, but your engine will probably continue to break-in until 7,500 to 10,000 miles. Mine felt like it was improving (power-wise) to about 20,000 miles.
Who knows, maybe the Honda's break-in material is a lot smaller and is trapped in the filter media?
As for the factory fill, yes, most people say it's made by Mobil, but it's a special formulation different from the stuff you can buy off the shelf.
Jason
I pulled that -30*C pp spec from Mobil's latest data sheet but now that I think about it--that can't be right. I have an older set of data sheets that says -36*C for the MDC 5w-20. That's probably more like it.
It seems to me nobody took into account that the vehicle was equipped with a block heater. While this wont 'heat the oil', it will warm the water in the block to well above freezing. this heat gets transferred to the block, and also to the oil inside the block. This alone would bring the oil above the -40f/c claimed temp. I think this would make the oil flow alot better than the 'maple syrup' at -40f/c would. I do think the filter failed due to the cold. reason is the way the element tore. It seemed to get brittle from use ( I have seen this ALOT in motorcycle filters) and when the oil was thicker it finally caved in. I think this could have happened to ANY filter, I even see it happen at normal operating temps in turbopropellor engine applications. while i dont use Amsoil products ( for reasons I wont discuss) I wouldn't hold it against them for teh failure. IMHO.
Tim H
I dont think the block heater helped in this case. All the oil in the pan will be at -40. At the instant of the first few revs, the -40 oil is sucked from the pan and immediately forced through the filter. After that it will get to the warmer block, but there will be several minutes of -40 oil as it is sucked from the pan.
Looks to me like thew filter media sheared off as a RESULT of the inner support screen collapsing. It would not shear off is the inner screen stayed in position. I've sent an e-mail to Amsoil to ask them about the design of the inner screen- where it is unsupported at the top end. I'll post their reply when I get it.
I dont think the block heater helped in this case. All the oil in the pan will be at -40. At the instant of the first few revs, the -40 oil is sucked from the pan and immediately forced through the filter. After that it will get to the warmer block, but there will be several minutes of -40 oil as it is sucked from the pan.
Looks to me like thew filter media sheared off as a RESULT of the inner support screen collapsing. It would not shear off is the inner screen stayed in position. I've sent an e-mail to Amsoil to ask them about the design of the inner screen- where it is unsupported at the top end. I'll post their reply when I get it.
We need to get Bob the oil guy some dry ice and let him repeat the pressure drop tests at -40
Please be sure to start your car at -40 with those filters as well, I'll be interested in the results!! I guess we'll have to wait until next year though!! Unless you live in antartica.
Also be sure that you stay away from any filter manufactured by baldwin/hastings. I'm sure they will be of the same design.
If it's -40 you can be sure that I hope I never have to start my car in those temps. Cause that would mean that I would have to be in those temps as well. Way too cold for me. Heck it gets down to 40+ and I'm freezing!!
[ June 13, 2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: msparks ]
Tim H brings up a good point about the block heater. Without it,
likely the engine would never have started. With itwarming the oil in
the block and limiting the back pressure from the oil passages, and
the oil pump forcing the -40 oil into the filter, no wonder it gave.
If the ADBV was holding back reasonably warm oil, maybe my attack
on it was wrong.
likely the engine would never have started. With itwarming the oil in
the block and limiting the back pressure from the oil passages, and
the oil pump forcing the -40 oil into the filter, no wonder it gave.
If the ADBV was holding back reasonably warm oil, maybe my attack
on it was wrong.
The following is the reply I received from Amsoil when I sent them the above closeup photo of the unsecured center tube and suggested that the unsecured tube was easy to collapse and that this lead to the failure of the element.
"Jim,
Nice photo, what are you doing changing oil?
The center tube is not the problem, a seal nor reinforcing is required at that juncture, the tube merely supports the media and tends to channel the oil flow through the filter.
The real problem was either the engine or filter by-pass valve or the pump pressure regulating valve. I don’t know what the temperature went down to in your area, but at 40 below any thing can happen and when that occurred the weakest link (and fortunately the least expensive part in this case) gave in.
Jim, I’m sorry that AMSOIL slipped on your scale of expectations; We take pride in makeing an excellent product because we use only the highest quality material under exacting specifications. When used according to our application recommendations our products are designed to meet or exceed OEM performance criteria.
I have attached a link to this communiqué that you may find interesting and informative which deals with filter issues such as you have inquired about.
AMSOIL Technical Services"
The link that he refers to is for the Filter Manufacturers Council. I've never heard of it - has anyone on this Forum??
They blame collapsed center tubes on anything but the filter itself!!!
Here is what they have posted in the link he provided:
Technical Service Bulletin 88-3R
Diagnosing Engine Oil Filters With Collapsed Center Tubes
When a collapsed center tube or element is discovered, the natural tendency is to assume something is wrong with the filter (Fig. 1). This is not the case, but is a symptom of problems with internal engine components.
Most engines incorporate within the oiling system a by-pass valve across the inlet and outlet of the full flow oil filter. The valve is designed to open and by-pass oil around the filter and/or element when the restriction reaches its opening pressure (Fig. 2). The by-pass flow circuit insures oil flow to the engine when there is a significant restriction across the filter due to plugging or cold start conditions. Typically, engine manufacturers design by-pass valves to open at a pressure differential of approximately 10 to 30 psid with some as low as 4 psid (28 kPad), with some opening as high as 75 psid (500 kPad). Some engine manufacturers have the by-pass valve located in the filter mounting base on the engine, while others locate the valve in the filter. Either way, the same purpose is served. Oil filters are designed to withstand, without collapsing, differential pressures significantly greater than those experienced under normal operating conditions. Therefore, when a center tube or element has collapsed, it is usually the result of a "sticking" or otherwise malfunctioning by-pass valve.
In some instances, a "sticky" filter by-pass valve alone is not enough to collapse the center tube or element. The oil pump pressure regulating valve may also stick in the closed position, which results in increased pressure and oil flow through the filter (see TSB-83-1 or PDF). Although this condition may be only momentary, it can quickly collapse the center tube if the by-pass valve fails to or is unable to relieve the excessive differential pressure.
A collapsed center tube or element can lead to a loss of filtration and oil flow to the engine. There is the possibility that interior parts of the filter or filter media may be physically displaced and could migrate into the oiling system interfering with the oil flow.
The malfunction of the filter by-pass and oil pump pressure regulating valves and the subsequent collapse of the center tube or element may not cause noticeable damage. However, at times it can result in a catastrophic failure of the engine caused by seizure of a piston, connecting rod, or main crankshaft bearings among other failure possibilities.
The malfunction of filter by-pass valves and pressure regulating valves has been traced to:
sticky surfaces caused by cold, highly viscous oil;
oil contaminated by excessive condensation, coolant, or oxidation;
neglect-extended oil drain and filter change intervals;
carbon grit that temporarily jams a valve;
sudden acceleration of the engine with any of the above conditions.
Discovery of a filter with a collapsed center tube or element calls for the inspection of the by-pass valve, if not built into the filter, and the oil pump pressure regulating valve, plus a review of the engine's performance and maintenance history.
"Jim,
Nice photo, what are you doing changing oil?
The center tube is not the problem, a seal nor reinforcing is required at that juncture, the tube merely supports the media and tends to channel the oil flow through the filter.
The real problem was either the engine or filter by-pass valve or the pump pressure regulating valve. I don’t know what the temperature went down to in your area, but at 40 below any thing can happen and when that occurred the weakest link (and fortunately the least expensive part in this case) gave in.
Jim, I’m sorry that AMSOIL slipped on your scale of expectations; We take pride in makeing an excellent product because we use only the highest quality material under exacting specifications. When used according to our application recommendations our products are designed to meet or exceed OEM performance criteria.
I have attached a link to this communiqué that you may find interesting and informative which deals with filter issues such as you have inquired about.
AMSOIL Technical Services"
The link that he refers to is for the Filter Manufacturers Council. I've never heard of it - has anyone on this Forum??
They blame collapsed center tubes on anything but the filter itself!!!
Here is what they have posted in the link he provided:
Technical Service Bulletin 88-3R
Diagnosing Engine Oil Filters With Collapsed Center Tubes
When a collapsed center tube or element is discovered, the natural tendency is to assume something is wrong with the filter (Fig. 1). This is not the case, but is a symptom of problems with internal engine components.
Most engines incorporate within the oiling system a by-pass valve across the inlet and outlet of the full flow oil filter. The valve is designed to open and by-pass oil around the filter and/or element when the restriction reaches its opening pressure (Fig. 2). The by-pass flow circuit insures oil flow to the engine when there is a significant restriction across the filter due to plugging or cold start conditions. Typically, engine manufacturers design by-pass valves to open at a pressure differential of approximately 10 to 30 psid with some as low as 4 psid (28 kPad), with some opening as high as 75 psid (500 kPad). Some engine manufacturers have the by-pass valve located in the filter mounting base on the engine, while others locate the valve in the filter. Either way, the same purpose is served. Oil filters are designed to withstand, without collapsing, differential pressures significantly greater than those experienced under normal operating conditions. Therefore, when a center tube or element has collapsed, it is usually the result of a "sticking" or otherwise malfunctioning by-pass valve.
In some instances, a "sticky" filter by-pass valve alone is not enough to collapse the center tube or element. The oil pump pressure regulating valve may also stick in the closed position, which results in increased pressure and oil flow through the filter (see TSB-83-1 or PDF). Although this condition may be only momentary, it can quickly collapse the center tube if the by-pass valve fails to or is unable to relieve the excessive differential pressure.
A collapsed center tube or element can lead to a loss of filtration and oil flow to the engine. There is the possibility that interior parts of the filter or filter media may be physically displaced and could migrate into the oiling system interfering with the oil flow.
The malfunction of the filter by-pass and oil pump pressure regulating valves and the subsequent collapse of the center tube or element may not cause noticeable damage. However, at times it can result in a catastrophic failure of the engine caused by seizure of a piston, connecting rod, or main crankshaft bearings among other failure possibilities.
The malfunction of filter by-pass valves and pressure regulating valves has been traced to:
sticky surfaces caused by cold, highly viscous oil;
oil contaminated by excessive condensation, coolant, or oxidation;
neglect-extended oil drain and filter change intervals;
carbon grit that temporarily jams a valve;
sudden acceleration of the engine with any of the above conditions.
Discovery of a filter with a collapsed center tube or element calls for the inspection of the by-pass valve, if not built into the filter, and the oil pump pressure regulating valve, plus a review of the engine's performance and maintenance history.
it appears to me that the bypass valve failed in the filter. the pump was obviously able to move the oil, so the pour point/pumpability argument is unnecessary. I would be pretty pissed if this were my car, but I don't buy amsoil anyway due to their stupid claims.
I have heard of the Filter council and they have very good unbiased information.
While you may get some good advice here I would not discount what they told you as a possible cause. I am sure the filter council has lot more data and expertise than a few people offering (some with a bias evident from comments interjected) opinions.
While you may get some good advice here I would not discount what they told you as a possible cause. I am sure the filter council has lot more data and expertise than a few people offering (some with a bias evident from comments interjected) opinions.
**** straight - that's why I wouldn't use any of their products in my own vehicles and equipment. They make some of the wildest claims!!
My lawnmower will get Pennzoil dino 10W-30, and my Ford modular motors will get M1 5W-30.
Trannies will get Redline D4 and my rear axles all use Redline 75W-90 and one uses 80W-140.
Amsoil's non-series 2000 gear oils other than the 75W-90 look like Group II dino junk with high pour points but at a synthetic price.
metroplex says:
I mean you say Amsoil makes "wild claims" (with little/ no back up) and then you just post something that seems pretty much like a claim to me.
Can you site the evidence? What grades? Compared to what oils? What specifications? Numbers please.
I mean you say Amsoil makes "wild claims" (with little/ no back up) and then you just post something that seems pretty much like a claim to me.
metroplex is an amsoil dealer?
I have used some Amsoil products. I did not like their oiled air filter but I did like their oil filters. Now, the filters are actually made by Baldwin or Hastings (probably to Amsoil specs) but the oil filters are good. Occasionally there will be a defective one in the bunch.
I think that most Amsoil motor oils are good, but I do think claims of 25,000 and even 35,000 mile oil changes are pretty wild. Maybe in a semi-truck with lots of filtering and a huge amount of oil, you can go 35,000 miles or more on one oil change.
Amsoil is probably roughly equal to Mobil 1 and Redline. In some of the literature I received from Amsoil there was sort of a claim that most NASCAR drivers use Amsoil.
I have used some Amsoil products. I did not like their oiled air filter but I did like their oil filters. Now, the filters are actually made by Baldwin or Hastings (probably to Amsoil specs) but the oil filters are good. Occasionally there will be a defective one in the bunch.
I think that most Amsoil motor oils are good, but I do think claims of 25,000 and even 35,000 mile oil changes are pretty wild. Maybe in a semi-truck with lots of filtering and a huge amount of oil, you can go 35,000 miles or more on one oil change.
Amsoil is probably roughly equal to Mobil 1 and Redline. In some of the literature I received from Amsoil there was sort of a claim that most NASCAR drivers use Amsoil.
ROTFLMAO!!quote:
Originally posted by GSV:
metroplex, you've got to be the worst dealer Amsoil ever hooked up with!Al might send Moose and Rocko to revoke your dealership.
"Please buy this Amsoil. It's not worth a s**t, and I don't use it myself, but you should."
This means it is very easy to buckle inwards
What do you mean by easy? I would wait until I see another of the same filter with the same problem before I give my two cents.....
I'm not going to base a trend on one point....
Although, if I were you, I'd be just as pissed off......
What do you mean by easy? I would wait until I see another of the same filter with the same problem before I give my two cents.....
I'm not going to base a trend on one point....
Although, if I were you, I'd be just as pissed off......
Hmm. My suspicions about Amsoil are confirmed! Their claims have caused me concern for years. I'll stick with Redline oil, K&N air filters, and Motorcraft, NAPA Gold, Bosch Premium, or K&N oil filters (the last depending on where I'm buying).
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