the future..... Black boxes in every car.

[kb01]

I have mixed feelings about this stuff. On one hand, I really don't want to lose privacy to the "black box" but on the other hand, it's not right that those who drive electric vehicles and hybrids aren't paying their share towards road costs.

I'm not sure what the solution is but I suspect it will involve completely reevaluating the whole idea of funding roads via gas taxes.

 

[eljefino]

http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-tolls-pay-only-third-state-local-road-spending

Quote:


Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways.[3] In other words, highway user taxes and fees made up just 32 percent of state and local expenses on roads. The rest was financed out of general revenues, including federal aid.



You know, now with gas taking a little dip, it wouldn't hurt to double the federal gas tax that hasn't moved from 18 cents since 1994.

Drivers, and the economy as a whole, want consistent pricing. When fuel prices dip too much something else overheats and overshoots, creating panic.

 

[keith]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Drivers, and the economy as a whole, want consistent pricing. When fuel prices dip too much something else overheats and overshoots, creating panic.



No panic here, I'll suffer the burden of cheaper gas.

 

[eljefino]

It's a good time to get into energy stocks.

 

[PandaBear]

I'm not sure how scary a black box can be, other than the following reasons:

1) If you say you were not in a road rage or ran a red light but you are, and get into trouble, and the black box may be against you.

2) If you were driving somewhere when you are not, or the other way around, and get into trouble with your spouse or boss.

3) If you want to roll back the odometer for insurance, tax, or lease mileage frauds (but they are already not easy to roll back today with electronics, or you can buy an alternative black box).


Seriously, there are easier ways to track people's movement and a black box with no GPS data would not be that scary.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: kb01
I have mixed feelings about this stuff. On one hand, I really don't want to lose privacy to the "black box" but on the other hand, it's not right that those who drive electric vehicles and hybrids aren't paying their share towards road costs.

I'm not sure what the solution is but I suspect it will involve completely reevaluating the whole idea of funding roads via gas taxes.


It is more of a political than technological reason. They can easily do that with annual inspection like the smog check today just for mileage reading for future registration fee.

Right now it is just a gov incentive, for whatever reason good or bad, but that doesn't mean it will be like this forever.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: supton
Good point. But don't those tractors pay extra already in extra taxes/registration?

Costs money to keep roads open and paved, and to add more pavement when congestion rises.


My work truck (33,000lbs) pays $530/year for tags. Also, I recall diesel is taxed higher than gas.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: eljefino

Check out the part about the axle damage to the 4th power of their weight.

Prius: 3000 lb curb weight
F250: 6000 lb curb weight

Since the F250 does the damage of 16 priusses but uses the fuel of three or four, there is indeed a problem. Maybe this black box isn't so bad...


Except the numbers for both are probably within the noise when it comes to damage to the road compared to an 80,000 lb truck.

I'm sure when it comes to road damage, that done by an F250 or a Prius is just about nil, whether the F250 does 16x more damage or not.


Righto, which is why the transport lobby never brings up scientific numbers on road damage when they moan about their $5k/ year registrations.

Maine and Vermont had a "pilot program" a couple years back about letting 100k lb trucks on interstates instead of 80k. The results of that program were buried or "inconclusive", so IMO it was just a free pass to overload for a couple years from a couple well-connected senators.


100K trucks are on the roads every day. Dumpers regularly put 105K on a semi, and I have seen 100,000lbs on a tri-axle mixer truck. A regular 10-wheel concrete mixer can top 70K.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: double vanos
I don't believe for one second that all that money will go to road repairs. It'll go everywhere but there!


You mean like it does now?

 

[Tones]

What makes you all think the gas tax would go away? My bet is that this is in addition to the existing tax. Its a shame this admin. spent $800 billion on making pig farts smell better and other stupid stuff while our infrastructure is crumbling and broke.

 

[79sunrunner]

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: eljefino

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AASHO_Road_Test

Check out the part about the axle damage to the 4th power of their weight.

Prius: 3000 lb curb weight
F250: 6000 lb curb weight

Since the F250 does the damage of 16 priusses but uses the fuel of three or four, there is indeed a problem. Maybe this black box isn't so bad...


So how about an F250 with a modified gas V10 that gets 9mpg and the same F250 with a modified diesel engine that gets 22mpg. Should the gas truck pay more than twice the road tax?

Using MPG for taxes is a ridiculous and antiquated system. I'm not saying I know what the answer is, only that the current system quite obviously does not work.

 

[KenO]

Instead of [censored] about cars 'cheating the current system' why don't we look to repeal the fuel taxes altogether? God knows it's not spent on strictly roads anymore. Like everything else in our over-taxed society, all the money gets stolen and thrown into the pot for them to mis-spend as they see fit.

 

[supton]

Got stirred up on a different forum, and it reminded me of this thread. So a bit of cross-posting...

If the 4th power rule is correct, then I get the following for road wear and tear:

(y + x)^4 = y^4 + 4*y^3*x + 6*y^2*x^2 + 4*Y*x^3 + x^4

with y=some baseline and x=additional weight over that baseline. Divide by y^4 to get relative increased wear.

For a 3,000lb baseline car, we get about 1,500lb axle weight. And a relative wear rate of 1.

Increase axle weight by 500lb, for 4k car, results in about 3x increase in road wear and tear. Increase by 1,000 for a 5k car and get about 7.7x increase. Going to a 6k vehicle is 16 fold increase in wear and tear over a 3,000lb econobox. Oddly enough, a 6,000lb vehicle generally does not burn 16 times more fuel, though.

I'm not sure how to do the math for a conventional truck. If I assume just four axles carrying the weight (steer axle negligible) then a 50,000lb truck causes 6,088 times more damage than the 3,000lb car. Well, actually twice that, as the 3,000lb car has only two axles, whereas the truck has four axles. An 80,000lb truck is a pavement-pounding 36,619 times more wear and tear (or 2x again, since twice as many axles).

Of course this assumes that wikipedia (and the science) is correct on all this.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-tolls-pay-only-third-state-local-road-spending

Quote:


Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways.[3] In other words, highway user taxes and fees made up just 32 percent of state and local expenses on roads. The rest was financed out of general revenues, including federal aid.



You know, now with gas taking a little dip, it wouldn't hurt to double the federal gas tax that hasn't moved from 18 cents since 1994.

Drivers, and the economy as a whole, want consistent pricing. When fuel prices dip too much something else overheats and overshoots, creating panic.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States

I dragged the table into Excel. Looks like most states only tack on a couple more cents onto D2, above what they tack onto RUG.

Some states actually "jack up" diesel less: CA, CO, DE, FL, MI, NE, NV, NY, OR, TN, VT; FL has the biggest diff at 4.9c less per gallon (53.8/RUG vs 54.9/D2).

Most states are pretty close.

States with more than 5c/gallon extra (above what they also put onto RUG): AZ (8c/g), CT (5.6), IL (5.4), IN (10.9), PA (6.9), VA (8.8).

CA leads is pretty bad, at 71.9/RUG and 74.9/D2, but CT is worse at 67.7/RUG and 79.3/D2, with the highest taxed D2 of the country.