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#3171837 - 10/29/13 07:51 PM DI intake valve deposits
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Just would like the forums view on this quote from Penzoil in regards to intake valve deposits and oil and what not.

Oil volatility is not a significant factor for inlet valve deposits in a direct injection gasoline engine. The significant factor is viscosity modifier type and concentration, so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial. In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%. The most important thing for DI engines is engine design, to better prevent deposits on ITVís (In Take Valves), since there is no fuel wash as in PFI (Port Fuel Injection) engines. "

So if this is the case would an oil like Redline 5w30 be of benefit?

Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (10/29/13 07:53 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3171842 - 10/29/13 07:56 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1432
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Just would like the forums view on this quote from Penzoil in regards to intake valve deposits and oil and what not.

Oil volatility is not a significant factor for inlet valve deposits in a direct injection gasoline engine. The significant factor is viscosity modifier type and concentration, so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial. In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%. The most important thing for DI engines is engine design, to better prevent deposits on ITVís (In Take Valves), since there is no fuel wash as in PFI (Port Fuel Injection) engines. "

So if this is the case would an oil like Redline 5w30 be of benefit?

Jeff

Yeah, but, all oils that meet MB 229.5 have NOACK less then 10% (M1, PU 5W40, GC).
It is just that Redline 5W30, 5W40, 5W40 Euro have extremely low NOACK of 6% (for example Amsoil 5W40 is 8.7%).
That is why I will never use Castrol 5W40 because it does not meet MB 229.5, which means NOACK is higher then 10%.


Edited by edyvw (10/29/13 07:56 PM)
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (Pentosin 5W40+OEM-Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 0W40+OEM-Mann)

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#3171846 - 10/29/13 07:58 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 27913
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%.

There are cars currently sold in North America that call for specs which require NOACK to be less than 10%.
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'02 530i (PPE 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
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#3171850 - 10/29/13 07:59 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1432
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%.

There are cars currently sold in North America that call for specs which require NOACK to be less than 10%.

Yes they are smile
and, they should know that smile
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (Pentosin 5W40+OEM-Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 0W40+OEM-Mann)

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#3171856 - 10/29/13 08:02 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
But penzoil seems to think it's the viscosity modifiers is a possible cause of the deposits so using an oil with a narrow viscosity index is better?

Kinda goes against what bitog usually say to look for?

Curious on this one. Strange find on this one.

Jeff
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2013 VW GTI

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#3171861 - 10/29/13 08:08 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 27913
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
But penzoil seems to think it's the viscosity modifiers is a possible cause of the deposits so using an oil with a narrow viscosity index is better?

Presumably they are saying that viscosity index modifiers break down and cause deposits. But how are these deposits making their way onto the valves? The only way this can happen is if they travel via vapors. And guess what, lower volatility (NOACK) = fewer vapors. If you eliminate/reduce the vapors, you are in effect not allowing these broken down VI modifiers to travel to the valves. So, you want both low VII and low NOACK. You also want low SAPS, IMO.

At least that's how I see it, but I'm not a chemical engineer, so I'll let others chime in.
_________________________
'02 530i (PPE 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3171876 - 10/29/13 08:19 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1432
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
But penzoil seems to think it's the viscosity modifiers is a possible cause of the deposits so using an oil with a narrow viscosity index is better?

Presumably they are saying that viscosity index modifiers break down and cause deposits. But how are these deposits making their way onto the valves? The only way this can happen is if they travel via vapors. And guess what, lower volatility (NOACK) = fewer vapors. If you eliminate/reduce the vapors, you are in effect not allowing these broken down VI modifiers to travel to the valves. So, you want both low VII and low NOACK. You also want low SAPS, IMO.

At least that's how I see it, but I'm not a chemical engineer, so I'll let others chime in.


Well, I think this debate is going to be present until they come up with additional port injector (and many are testing thet) so that valves could be washed.
I always used GC or few time M1 in CC. So both are below 10%.
Got Tiguan, used one. Carfax reported that it was serviced during free maintenance period in VW. So because I wanted SEL, with approx. 30K and CPO, I flew to VA and drove it to San Diego. In TN, check engine light goes on. In SD, VW says it is intake manifold.
I truly believe it is because of that Castrol 5W40 and the fact that car was driven by older person, which means no high rpm's (probably smile ).
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (Pentosin 5W40+OEM-Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 0W40+OEM-Mann)

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#3171896 - 10/29/13 08:31 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Quattro Pete]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 22570
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
But penzoil seems to think it's the viscosity modifiers is a possible cause of the deposits so using an oil with a narrow viscosity index is better?

Presumably they are saying that viscosity index modifiers break down and cause deposits. But how are these deposits making their way onto the valves? The only way this can happen is if they travel via vapors. And guess what, lower volatility (NOACK) = fewer vapors. If you eliminate/reduce the vapors, you are in effect not allowing these broken down VI modifiers to travel to the valves. So, you want both low VII and low NOACK. You also want low SAPS, IMO.

At least that's how I see it, but I'm not a chemical engineer, so I'll let others chime in.


I'm not chemical engineer either but for Pennzoil to make that claim I believe it.
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#3171918 - 10/29/13 08:48 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 35439
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX

Kinda goes against what bitog usually say to look for?



What does BITOG usually say to look for?

Either there is the crowd that takes what is cheapest, and thinks that oil is oil...

Ot those that look for low volatility, minimal VII, high quality oils with low NOACK and good HTHS... Dont confuse wider spread with quality lubes that are good blends of quality basestocks and try to minimize volatility... IMO.

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#3171920 - 10/29/13 08:49 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: demarpaint]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 35439
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
But penzoil seems to think it's the viscosity modifiers is a possible cause of the deposits so using an oil with a narrow viscosity index is better?

Presumably they are saying that viscosity index modifiers break down and cause deposits. But how are these deposits making their way onto the valves? The only way this can happen is if they travel via vapors. And guess what, lower volatility (NOACK) = fewer vapors. If you eliminate/reduce the vapors, you are in effect not allowing these broken down VI modifiers to travel to the valves. So, you want both low VII and low NOACK. You also want low SAPS, IMO.

At least that's how I see it, but I'm not a chemical engineer, so I'll let others chime in.


I'm not chemical engineer either but for Pennzoil to make that claim I believe it.


I would venture to guess that the volatilized components from VII break down are different materials, and perhaps more deposit forming, than the regular hydrocarbons found in a basestock.

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#3171935 - 10/29/13 08:59 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
oldhp Offline


Registered: 06/28/12
Posts: 997
Loc: Southern Illinois
Doesn't most of the intake valve deposits come from the PCV ?
And since there is no fuel wash with D.I. ,I can see why a lower NOACK would put less crud into PCV system.
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#3171959 - 10/29/13 09:17 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
chubbs1 Offline


Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 4574
Loc: Merritt Island FL, USA
Really no need to spend a bunch of money on RedLine 5w30 or other boutique oils. The whole line of common SOPUS 5w30's have low volatility. PP, QSUD, FS(syn). I imagine their 5w20's are low NOACK too but waiting for PQIA to test them grin
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#3171970 - 10/29/13 09:23 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 27913
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial.

Yet, none of the Euro DI engines specify such a grade.
_________________________
'02 530i (PPE 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3172016 - 10/29/13 09:50 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
What I have read allot on this site is higher the VI The better to some degree. So is it possible those additives to create such may contribute to the crud build up?

If that is the case how does M1 0w40 have a NOACK under 10%? Theory out the window??

I mentioned redline because their 5w30 has the hths close to M1 0w40 and PU 5w40 it has a lower VI (if that's good?) And a NOACK of 6%. Redline does not recommend the use of their euro 5w30 low saps. When I asked them why they stated their is nothing that their engineers and chemist have found that the saps are a main contributor.

I'm not trying to cause trouble hear is just something I found and know people here may have more insight.

Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (10/29/13 09:54 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3172021 - 10/29/13 09:54 PM Re: DI intake valve deposits [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 27913
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
What I have read allot on this site is higher the VI The better to some degree. So is it possible those additives to create such may contribute to the crud build up?

Don't confuse high VI with large amounts of VI improvers/modifiers. High VI can be achieved by using high quality base stocks and thus not requiring the use of large amounts of VI improvers/modifiers.

Quote:
If that is the case how does M1 0w40 have a NOACK under 10%? Theory out the window??

VI and NOACK are two different things, not necessarily related.
_________________________
'02 530i (PPE 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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