Honda ATF change recommendations

[David1]

Originally Posted By: Quakish
first things I did on my 03 ody when i bought it (it was used with 60k on it)
1) replace the filter (the one yesthatsteve mentions above)
2) install tranny cooler
3) 4 x d&f with z-1

coming up to 100k and have done a couple more d&f's. not much on the drain magnet, fluid never looks brown, still red and smells pretty fresh as well.

i think a cooler is a must for anyone with this vintage v-6 honda.



Good Job

I personally feel they should of put a stronger tranny in that Van

its basicvally the same trans mission in a V6 Accord... Plus the van is much more heavy.

also yes I have seen the Trans filter on them.... also good job adding a cooler.

what cooler did you add and was hard to add?

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: David1
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
[Jim Allen]That picture shows ferro-paste on a magnet, not necessarily "sludge." If you have a picture of the pickup screen, that would be more useful in making a point.


David1, agglomerated ferro-paste is NOT sludge.






Okay just think of a Transmission with 130K miles on it and the ATF FLUID has never been changed... Well this is what the inside of the Tranny looks like



Notice the screen / filter how its FULL.. Can you imagine how it is with a HONDA????
You cant get inside like this and clean the pan or change the filter, so then when you put in new ATF and it cleans up all the sludge what do you think happens?


Im sure most will agree they know what happens next


You can spend all the hours you want glomming other peoples pics without listing their source. But I found the source of the pic (www.fixeuro.com) and watched the video mentioned in the pic you used without permission or citation. Nothing is stated about the source of the problem. Oddly, they had a pic of a failed 4HP22 Land Rover automatic... a trans I traveled to England and the Land Rover factory to learn how to rebuild and repair... but I digress.

Oxidation byproducts most often come from heat, so if you overheat the trans, the fluid oxidizes and what you call sludge can form. But is that sludge the chicken or the egg? Many times it's the egg from the trans being overheated or run hot over long periods. Or slipping just a little and getting hot over long periods. Either way, the trans is a zombie at that point.

 

[y_p_w]

I was all set to do it this afternoon along with a power steering flush. So I got under there and the bolt just wasn't coming off. I'm pretty sure it was the right bolt since there's nothing else down there with a square hole. I have a 1/2" drive breaker bar, but I don't think I can fit it in there with a 3/8" adapter, it's probably pointless using an adapter anyways.

So I need to get a breaker bar, and one that will fit in that tiny opening. I don't need a particularly long one, but I can't get enough torque with play I get from the socket wrench. I was thinking maybe Harbor Freight, but the ones they have seem to have a reputation for breaking. I think a 10" Craftsman should work fine. On the ground I don't think I can get anything longer in there anyways.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I was all set to do it this afternoon along with a power steering flush. So I got under there and the bolt just wasn't coming off. I'm pretty sure it was the right bolt since there's nothing else down there with a square hole. I have a 1/2" drive breaker bar, but I don't think I can fit it in there with a 3/8" adapter, it's probably pointless using an adapter anyways.

So I need to get a breaker bar, and one that will fit in that tiny opening. I don't need a particularly long one, but I can't get enough torque with play I get from the socket wrench. I was thinking maybe Harbor Freight, but the ones they have seem to have a reputation for breaking. I think a 10" Craftsman should work fine. On the ground I don't think I can get anything longer in there anyways.



just put any ratchet 3/8s and use your FOOT and press and it will come losse

Look on you tube they show you many Videos how to do it.

My buddy Eric the Car guy shows you some great stuff

Wait till you want to change your timing belt, I have that video and made chaning the timing belt much more easy

but use any ratchet 3/8 inch and your foot and it will come off

if it is that TIGHT then its probably never been out

Remember to clean alllllllllll metal sludge off the magnet

also I highly stress just doing 1 drain and fill and at least wait a month.


Look at pics

Also most do not have the ATF Warmer....
and you can go via the dip stick to fill back with ATF FLUID... unless you can get that ATF Filler OFF and let me tell you its TIGHTTTTTTTTTT

See how easy???? Just use any 3/8 Ratchet and simply remove

same in this pic.. just a ratchet but if its tight use your foot and apply steady pressure

HOPE THIS HELPS

 

[user52165]

And when you reinstall, use a new crush washer - just like you do on an oil plug.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: user52165
And when you reinstall, use a new crush washer - just like you do on an oil plug.



Or you can just turn the old crush washer backwards or just sand it.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: David1
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I was all set to do it this afternoon along with a power steering flush. So I got under there and the bolt just wasn't coming off. I'm pretty sure it was the right bolt since there's nothing else down there with a square hole. I have a 1/2" drive breaker bar, but I don't think I can fit it in there with a 3/8" adapter, it's probably pointless using an adapter anyways.

So I need to get a breaker bar, and one that will fit in that tiny opening. I don't need a particularly long one, but I can't get enough torque with play I get from the socket wrench. I was thinking maybe Harbor Freight, but the ones they have seem to have a reputation for breaking. I think a 10" Craftsman should work fine. On the ground I don't think I can get anything longer in there anyways.



just put any ratchet 3/8s and use your FOOT and press and it will come losse

Look on you tube they show you many Videos how to do it.

I don't think that'll work with this particular tranny. The bolt is pointed towards the right of the car, which means counterclockwise (to loosen) from the bottom - or it has to be pulled towards the front. And it's literally 3/4" from a suspension part. I could barely get my socket wrench in there. I'm not even sure this was designed to be serviced, or it doesn't seem like it with all the obstacles (near the fill hole, how tight it was from the factory, and the drain bolt right next to a suspension part).

I remember when I had a tough time removing the bolt on my '95 Integra GS-R (manual transmission only). It's almost the same as a Honda ATF change except for the fill bolt. The first time I'd had the manual transmission drained and filled, an independent Japanese car specialist did it. They charged for 3 quarts of 10W-30 oil and 10 minutes labor. However, they had no issues when I said I liked doing regular maintenance myself. So I asked them if they could loosen the plug and someone got under there with a breaker bar and loosened it. I was easily able to do it myself ever since and until I handed the keys to my insurance company. Still - that and the '89 Integra I worked on had the bolt pointing to the left. I think using a foot would have worked.

 

[The Critic]

A V6 Accord is the same way. I have a long snap-on 3/8" ratchet that I stick right into the hole, and with a strong tug, the plug will come out.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
To the OP and anyone else who reads this down the road. Ignore the advice above.

Change the fluid. Good fluid is better than bad fluid. Leaving bad fluid in is certain death.....

......That picture shows ferro-paste on a magnet, not necessarily "sludge.".....

......By definition, "sludge" is oxidative byproducts. Those are mostly metallic particles attracted to a magnet......

......You can spend all the hours you want glomming other peoples pics without listing their source.....

+1000 Thank goodness for Bitog members like Jim Allen and others here for correcting the misinformation presented in this thread as correct procedure for the OP's AT maintenance service. Imo, it's becoming like a virus on some boards including the oil filter board too, scary.

Having maintained an 01 Civic AT since new I'm a bit familiar with the topic. Since your not sure of the service history I'd start with a single d&f for now. Run it awhile, then do another d&f. It's all I've ever done at 25-30k intervals on the 01 Civic. You can use DW-1, MaxLife, Castrol IMV, or Valvoline Import MV. I'm now using MaxLife but any of those mentioned should work fine and is a matter of preference for Z-1 spec replacement. But, 1 d&f or 3x do change it. Don't let the current fill just sit in there unchanged.

To remove the drain bolt I find I have to tap the ratchet with a hammer (light to moderate) to break it free. As mentioned longer handle ratchet works better, but if it's never been removed you may need/want to spray some PB Blaster or similar on the plug area to help free the drain plug. I find the tap frees the plug that I can't remove with force and leverage alone with car on the ground, it's always worked for me. I use a torque wrench to retighten to spec.

On the 01, the fill hole sits very low and learning the hard way, (spills) I found that a flexible hose funnel works best.

 

[PandaBear]

The every 105k / 120k is just to make their service schedule look good if you have to drain / fill 4x. What it really means is you should have done it every 30k to keep it fresh.

At your point I'd probably do a drain / fill every 30k from now on instead.

 

[y_p_w]

Finally got the bolt off off. I think the service manual spec is maybe 33 lb-ft, but at the factory they must triple that to prevent DIY'ers from doing it. I bought a Craftsman 10" breaker bar/flex handle and tried it with the car flat on the ground. Couldn't get it in at all because of the orientation of the bolt head. One of the flat sides of the indentation was nearly parallel to the ground. With the bar straight down there wasn't enough room and I couldn't get it all diagonally. Tried again with the ratchet and I think I rounded off the bolt head a little bit. It might be worth getting a new one. O'Reillys is showing a new one from Dorman for $100, which seems a little bit odd. Rockauto shows the Dorman part for about $5. Some discount Honda online part stores are showing it's around $10.

So I just whipped out the ramps, although I'm not that great at using them (worried about going past the end). I managed to get part way up and set my metal wheel chocks. A little sideways shove to see if the car was secure on the ramps and I went under and pulled hard on the breaker bar. It didn't creak like I thought it would but just gave a loud POP and right away I could loosen it by hand. So then I tightened it slightly, pulled out the chocks, drove it down, and then repositioned back into the garage to do the drain on flat ground.

I tried a trick with newspaper taped to the suspension arm, but the draining fluid still jumped over it. Whoever designed the bolt location must have wanted a maximum amount of ATF on the ground dripping from the suspension arm. The fluid came out rather dark. The magnet at the end of the bolt had a lot of metallic fuzz on it. When I partially wiped it off it looked like iron filings still on the magnet. The head was very much rounded off in the indentation, but it's still usable. The fluid actually took almost 15 minutes before it came out in drips rather than a stream.

I finally waited for it to become tiny drips and I thought it was enough and put on the cleaned bolt with a new crush washer. So this finally was it after about 3 previous attempts. I previously checked to see if my long funnel would reach the filler hole, and it didn't because there's some sort of mount in the way. I had piece of vinyl tubing the slipped over the end of the funnel and that would go in the filler hole. So a shade less than 3 quarts and it's dead on at the max line. The other issue is that the drips are going through two drain holes on the suspension arm, and I just plugged those up with ends of a paper towel wedged in the holes. It should soak up the ATF and I'll pull it out in a few days.

I figure this was probably something best done every 30K miles with a single drain and fill each time, although the service chart seems to say 4x consecutively at 120K miles (or that's what others seem to interpret). Someone suggested waiting a month (it's at over 65K miles). Maybe I'll get a new bolt, although it doesn't look like it's strictly needed. I'm still trying to find a place that sells M18 crush washers cheaper than the Honda dealer (over $3). I found a Napa that was open today, but when I asked, they whipped out the loose copper washers in a box and they didn't have anything bigger than an M14. I'm going to get an ATF package with 4 quarts and a washer, but I'll eventually need a washer by itself.

And still I can't figure out why it's on so tight at the factory (my wife tells me she's never had it done). If it's set to the service manual spec, it'll never drip or loosen by itself. It's like they had someone at the transmission factory just take a 3 ft breaker bar to tighten it as tight as they could.

 

[90crvtec]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
And still I can't figure out why it's on so tight at the factory (my wife tells me she's never had it done). If it's set to the service manual spec, it'll never drip or loosen by itself. It's like they had someone at the transmission factory just take a 3 ft breaker bar to tighten it as tight as they could.


Reading your story of getting the drain bolt out reminded me of all of my early 90s accords with ATs. In every single instance, I had the same experience. The drain bolt almost seemed welded in place and with enough force, it would always give a sharp pop and then I could unscrew it with my fingers.

My theory is that the crush washer probably has a bit of corrosion that forms against the aluminum case of the transmission and sticks after a while. On subsequent drain and fills, I still find the drain bolt has started to "weld" itself back onto the transmission casing even if I used a new washer and did not over torque it when I re-installed it.

When you go to do this again in 30k more miles, it shouldn't be as bad as the 1st time but, I'd still expect to have to use some force to pop it loose. I wouldn't be alarmed. I've done over a dozen drain and fills on various Hondas that I've owned and I never had an issue with a stripped drain plug. Just keep using new washers when you reinstall and you should be good to go.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: 90crvtec
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
And still I can't figure out why it's on so tight at the factory (my wife tells me she's never had it done). If it's set to the service manual spec, it'll never drip or loosen by itself. It's like they had someone at the transmission factory just take a 3 ft breaker bar to tighten it as tight as they could.


Reading your story of getting the drain bolt out reminded me of all of my early 90s accords with ATs. In every single instance, I had the same experience. The drain bolt almost seemed welded in place and with enough force, it would always give a sharp pop and then I could unscrew it with my fingers.

My theory is that the crush washer probably has a bit of corrosion that forms against the aluminum case of the transmission and sticks after a while. On subsequent drain and fills, I still find the drain bolt has started to "weld" itself back onto the transmission casing even if I used a new washer and did not over torque it when I re-installed it.

When you go to do this again in 30k more miles, it shouldn't be as bad as the 1st time but, I'd still expect to have to use some force to pop it loose. I wouldn't be alarmed. I've done over a dozen drain and fills on various Hondas that I've owned and I never had an issue with a stripped drain plug. Just keep using new washers when you reinstall and you should be good to go.

A guy at the parts counter claimed that a lot of gunk that gets in there leads to electrolysis where I guess oxides form on both metals and the washer bonds to the steel of the plug and the transmission body. Another claim I've read is that the process is called "cold welding" where small amounts of metal migrate under pressure. So apparently it wasn't necessarily overtorqued.

In any case, I just bought three M18 copper washers at a Napa store. The guy at the parts counter said that gasket material is really a personal preference, although I've heard that copper is less likely to get stuck than aluminum. Another claim is that copper is a dissimilar material more likely to corrode when in contact with steel.

 

[y_p_w]

Drained it again after 6 days. Bought a new OEM drain plug (to replace the one I rounded off) and used a copper crush washer. And yes - I did use a copper washer. There was a tiny bit of stuff on the drain plug magnet after only 6 days. This time I used some aluminum foil and hiked it way up to try and route the flow of ATF away from the frame component. This time nothing dripped on the frame, but there was plenty of mess on the plastic sheet I put underneath.

My calculations are that there should be about 70% fresh fluid in there now after two complete D&Fs. It's actually looking quite pink wiped off the dipstick. When it was on the factory fluid, it was looking kind of grayish red from wiping the dipstick and drained out really dark. I think I'm probably set for now. Maybe again in a year. It's not that it necessarily needs it, but it's easy enough to remember and it's pretty easy/cheap to do.

 

[Brybo86]

Originally Posted By: David1


See how easy???? Just use any 3/8 Ratchet and simply remove

same in this pic.. just a ratchet but if its tight use your foot and apply steady pressure

HOPE THIS HELPS


HAHAHA just put your foot on the torque wrench and push hard to remove stubborn bolts... AHAHAHHAA

 

[millerbl00]

On the accords there is a trans filter on top of the engine. Might want to check

Unchanged they clog up and cause problems

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: millerbl00
On the accords there is a trans filter on top of the engine. Might want to check

Unchanged they clog up and cause problems



You can replace the factory filter (the one in the motor compartment) with a Magnefine quite easily. That's what I did on my Accord.

On my year 2007 there isn't a recommendation on changing the filter located in the engine compartment. I have never heard of one clogging.

 

[Fsatsil]

Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
On the accords there is a trans filter on top of the engine. Might want to check

Unchanged they clog up and cause problems



You can replace the factory filter (the one in the motor compartment) with a Magnefine quite easily. That's what I did on my Accord.

On my year 2007 there isn't a recommendation on changing the filter located in the engine compartment. I have never heard of one clogging.

My CR-V also has that filter on the trans cooler line and neither the owners manual or service manual mentions anything about it. I guess it's one of those parts thats supposed to last the lifetime of the vehicle

. I'm not taking any chances with the tranny so I picked up a Magnefine filter and will be installing it before the cold weather comes. I just turned 100k this summer and I'm curious to cut open that oem filter and see what it looks like.

 

[wgtoys]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
OP - I have a ton of those washers and I can give you some. I bought a 50pk off eBay for $10 a while back.

The multiple drain and refills or "flush," is only applicable for certain repairs and/or if the transmission has been contaminated with a non-Honda fluid.


That is not correct, at least not if you follow the Honda service manual. Honda specifically recommends against using the common ATF flush machines seen in most modern automotive shops and quick lube places. Instead, Honda calls for three rounds of drain-fill-drive followed by one drain-fill.

We have two Honda products, an '03 V6 Accord and an '06 TSX. I've done essentially all of the maintenance since new on both. I'm a believer in every 30k mile ATF changes because transmissions are expensive and good lubricants are cheap!

Early on I used Honda original ATF-Z1 and the factory method. Later on I switched to Castrol Import Multi-Vehicle ATF and the cooler line flush method. The ATF-Z1 was not a very robust fluid IMO. At 30k mile changes the shifting would be noticeably better with fresh fluid. So far we have 170k miles on the Accord and 130k miles on the TSX with no transmission troubles. The Accord did have an early warranty swap out for a new transmission at 30k miles due to a freakish leaking transmission case. That also meant upgrading to the improved 2nd gear cooling Honda put into those vehicles.

The only thing I'm certain of is that I will never let a quick lube place hook up a flush machine and run mystery-solvent through the transmission followed by cheap ATF and a bottle of "BG-magic".

.

 

[wgtoys]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w


And still I can't figure out why it's on so tight at the factory (my wife tells me she's never had it done). If it's set to the service manual spec, it'll never drip or loosen by itself. It's like they had someone at the transmission factory just take a 3 ft breaker bar to tighten it as tight as they could.


I had the same problem the first time I removed those drain plugs on our two Honda products. The factory seemed to way over tighten them.